Dr Andrew Greenland: 0:03

Welcome to Voices in Health and Wellness, where we dive into the human and operational stories behind modern care delivery. I'm Dr Andrew Greenland and I'm the host of this show. I'm honored today to be joined by Melissa Persichini, a licensed clinical therapist with advanced certifications in addiction, trauma and women's health. Melissa serves as a leading voice at the Women's and Girls Empowerment Center, a virtual clinic based in Michigan that specializes in trauma-informed care for underserved populations. So, melissa, thank you so much for joining us here this afternoon and giving up your time. Really do appreciate it.

Melissa Persichini: 0:34

Absolutely Thanks for having me.

Dr Andrew Greenland: 0:36

Wonderful. So perhaps we could start at the top and to set the stage, could you maybe tell?

Melissa Persichini: 0:46

us a little bit about your role and what drew you into trauma-informed care for women and girls specifically. Sure, Actually, I kind of fell into it. I went back to school because I wanted to work in substance abuse. That was my passion. And in grad school I took a trauma course and just completely fell in love with how it worked and the transformation that could happen when you gave somebody the right treatment.

Melissa Persichini: 1:07

Because people get misdiagnosed or it goes untreated and they're, you know, being treated for ADHD, for anxiety, for depression, and a lot of those stem from untreated trauma or just are not. You know, yeah, it is so misdiagnosis happens and people don't get the right treatment. So it's something that I became very passionate about. And then I ended up working with women. I started out in substance abuse and gradually ended up doing treatment with residential treatment center for girls, fell in love with it. I was like I don't want to work with teenagers, but I did, and then I fell in love with it and it was just a process of working with children and then moving up to working with adults and what I found was I just I loved working with women. I absolutely loved it, and women are so incredibly resilient and so strong and they really you see a lot of transformation with women because they really show up and they're willing to do the work and willing to reflect. So it's just an exciting thing that I love doing.

Dr Andrew Greenland: 2:11

Amazing. So what does a typical day look like for you in a fully virtual practice?

Melissa Persichini: 2:15

at the moment, there's probably no such thing as a typical day, but I usually see about four clients a day. I have colleagues that see more. I have colleagues that see less or about the same. For me, that's my sweet spot. I've tried seeing more and it just I don't have the capacity for it. So this is where I stick with seeing about four clients a day, and that's a great spot for me. And then I have more emotional bandwidth to give clients.

Dr Andrew Greenland: 2:43

So yeah, more emotional bandwidth to give clients. So yeah, and in terms of, I mean, are you purely sort of clinical, purely in your therapy mode, or do you have a chunk of time that you're having to spend on the business itself?

Melissa Persichini: 2:55

I'm starting to do more of that. That's not something I've ever been super excited about. Nobody goes into this for the documentation and marketing, but it is something I'm dabbling in. But for the bulk of my work it's definitely clinical practice.

Dr Andrew Greenland: 3:14

And obviously being able to have the bandwidth for four patients a day. How does that compare with your colleagues in other practices, Because I'm guessing they have much higher caseloads. They're trying to have a bigger throughput. What do you think you can deliver with that sort of additional time and attention that perhaps other people can't?

Melissa Persichini: 3:30

I think a big part of my practice and I'm very transparent with clients is that I'm constantly doing my own work. I'm constantly in therapy or support groups or holistic healing. I am constantly doing my own work, which is, I think, what attracts a lot of clients to my practice, is that I consider myself a wounded healer. So I didn't arrive here like perfectly healed and I read it in a textbook and now I can help all of you poor women Like no, I am one of you poor women, not poor, but you know what I'm saying. I've been through all of the same things that they're going through.

Melissa Persichini: 4:05

And so just to have somebody that can hold space and who, the way that I look at it is, you know, when you come in and you haven't done mental health treatment, it's kind of like you're in the dark and you need somebody holding the lantern ahead of you to say like the lights over here are just like follow me. So I feel like I always try and stay a step ahead of my clients by doing my own work. Then I can offer them resources and I can say here's some things you know may work for you, may not, and it's very individualized, but I feel like I want to try different things, so I have more resources to give.

Dr Andrew Greenland: 4:38

Amazing. What changes are you seeing in the mental health needs of women and girls post pandemic, Because obviously the pandemic was a big deal for the whole world. But what are you sort of seeing post-pandemic, particularly in your niche groups of women and girls?

Melissa Persichini: 4:52

I feel like there's a lot of isolation. I'm sure this is across the board, but you know it's so interesting when you think about the quotation, you know it takes a village right. And so there's this thought that you know we used to have these villages where, oh, you don't have that resource, I'll give it to you, or you don't have the time, I'll help you and women are so isolated not that everyone is, but women tend to take the brunt of that, you know. So now women are working, but they're also raising children, and then, you know, sometimes they're going to school or sometimes they're, you know, doing it, doing something else. So I think, just the mental load and all that they're taking on, and then not having a big support system, because everybody's so focused on their own life and trying to balance their own household that it's like it takes a village, but the woman has become the entire village.

Dr Andrew Greenland: 5:47

Got it. I'm very interested in the whole practice of yours being virtual only. So how has the shift to virtual only care affected how clients engage or disengage with your services?

Melissa Persichini: 5:58

You know I've been pretty lucky. I think that it's just the way that I work is that women tend to feel pretty connected and we build a strong rapport, even if it's virtual. I haven't had too many issues. Sometimes on the onset I'll have somebody that says, no, I don't want to do virtual, and that's totally fine. I get wanting to do in person, but clients that I have worked with in the past, they haven't had any issues with it. I mean there are some that say I would love for you to be back in person. I'm like, yep, me too. But I mean, for the most part it's not really been a barrier for me personally.

Dr Andrew Greenland: 6:42

I mean, do you do any in person, or is it purely virtual, as I seem to get the impression from your site?

Melissa Persichini: 6:48

Correct, yep, yep, all virtual for now.

Dr Andrew Greenland: 6:51

And is that something that arose, you know, as a result of the pandemic, when you know we couldn't see people in person, or was this something you were doing beforehand?

Melissa Persichini: 6:59

No, it was definitely the result of the pandemic. I was in person and for about five years, and then the pandemic happened. So I was doing virtual for about a year. I was in another practice for about a year and then that office flooded and I was getting ready to move and so I thought, well, it's not a good time to find a new location. And now I've moved back and so it's kind of like deciding what the next step is going to be. I'd love to do a hybrid practice where I have some days in person and some days virtual, but it's just finding the perfect location and all of that. So hopefully eventually I'll get back to that.

Dr Andrew Greenland: 7:39

I'm really interested in burnout and we're all susceptible to this in the caring professions, but I guess, being in therapy perhaps, the burnout rate is perhaps higher. What's your view about how it's showing up today in the field?

Melissa Persichini: 7:54

You know I have colleagues that will talk about burnout. I have not so much been experiencing that. I think for me personally, when I have those moments of feeling burnt out, it's typically because I'm not taking care of myself or because I'm taking on too much of the burden of clients healing and feeling like I'm not making enough of a difference or they're not changing. And so I think with the work that I do, I just don't have that perspective. I'm here, I'm like a conduit, so they're either going to make changes or they're not. So if I don't take that personally and I don't feel like it's a reflection of me as a therapist, then I tend not to burn out. And again, I think self-care is so important, which is why I keep my case lower than some of my colleagues, and that also helps reduce burnout, because I'm not seeing more than I can handle.

Dr Andrew Greenland: 8:52

I understand, and is there anything that you do sort of in respect of sort of client boundaries and contracting to kind of protect yourself? I guess to some degree.

Melissa Persichini: 9:01

I think I just practice the boundaries.

Melissa Persichini: 9:08

I think I just practice the boundaries.

Melissa Persichini: 9:09

I think a huge part of what sometimes gets missed with clients and therapists is this may be the first healthy relationship a client has had where we can talk about boundaries we can talk about.

Melissa Persichini: 9:18

You know, I always encourage clients if I'm doing something you don't like, or if I asked you something you don't want to talk about, you get to set the boundary. You get to say you don't want to talk about. You get to set the boundary. You get to say I don't want to talk about that, melissa. Or you know, you asked me to do this and that didn't work for me, because we're practicing healthy relationships. And then maybe, like I said, maybe the first opportunity they've had to do that where they weren't judged or they weren't reprimanded or, you know, spoken to in a condescending way when they disagreed with someone. So that's very much encouraged is that we practice healthy boundaries. Communicate with me if you know I'm doing something you don't like or vice versa, you know, and so I try and model that and clients are very respectful of my time and my boundaries and it's just a mutual understanding.

Dr Andrew Greenland: 10:04

So you obviously got lots of self-care things in place to protect yourself. What do you see people in your space doing wrongly in this respect, and perhaps people that you might know that have succumbed to burnout? Where are they going wrong?

Melissa Persichini: 10:17

Oh, I think again either over committing and doing more than they should, not not trusting their intuition, because I've done it in the past. I've worked with clients where I think, oh you know, I really want to work this client, I'm just going to do it, even though my intuition is like this is not a good fit. And then I take on a client and then I end up feeling like really burnt out or overloaded and it's because I didn't trust myself. So I think a lot of it is you have to trust your gut. Your gut will tell you what your limitations are. And when you push beyond that whether it's, you know, fear of like not having enough clients or feel feeling like you should push yourself out of your comfort zone I'm all for doing that, but you have to know your limitations. And then, yeah, making sure that you are doing self-care and that you're doing your own work, because if you don't, your clients will surpass you in their growth. You know what I mean. You have to be constantly a step ahead in your own healing process.

Dr Andrew Greenland: 11:16

Thinking more about the business side of things now. So you've obviously worked in the in-person. You're now doing pretty much all virtual. What are some of the kind of challenges of running those different style of therapy businesses?

Melissa Persichini: 11:31

I think it's more of just losing that in-person contact. I mean, as far as you know other things, they're not that much impacted. So I think it's more just losing more, just losing that in person I do. I am somebody who likes to do creative things with clients when the opportunity presents.

Melissa Persichini: 11:50

I'm not an art therapist I won't claim to be but I do like to do creative expressions. So when I'm in person it gives a little bit more access to you know, you talked about such and such. Let's do something artistic around that. And you know some of my clients really enjoy that element of being able to express themselves in a more hands-on way because it accesses a different part of the brain and they're able to kind of get things out where words wouldn't help them with that. So I still am able to do that when we're doing virtual, but it may just not be as accessible as when we're in my office and I have all these different supplies and I pull them out and say let's do this, you know. So that's probably the biggest barrier for me that I've seen.

Dr Andrew Greenland: 12:31

Got it and, in terms of it being, in terms of the business side of things, what's the most inefficient part of managing a virtual mental health practice?

Melissa Persichini: 12:41

Hmm, I don't, I'm not, I'm not sure I haven't. Yeah, I feel like I want to say something helpful, but I don't know that I have an actual answer for that it's. It's really pretty similar to doing in person, other than the sessions.

Dr Andrew Greenland: 12:58

Or put it another way, is there more inefficiency in running an in-person clinic in terms of the business operation side of things?

Melissa Persichini: 13:07

Well, I mean, if you're talking about like income, obviously you're paying a lot more overhead. If you're, if you're renting an office, you're also having to deal with, which is partly why I haven't gone back to in person, to in person. The main reason I haven't gone back to in person is because it's really difficult to find a space that is a good fit for what you're looking for. The first place that I was at for five years, I loved the space. It was this Victorian house, beautiful.

Melissa Persichini: 13:38

However, sometimes I, you know, I'd have to remind the owners not to engage with my clients. Um, because it's in in most businesses that's. You want that, you want people to. You know, hey, how are you? What's going on in your life? But when you're dealing with a mental health clinic, you have some people that come in and it's hard for them just to show up and they don't want to have a conversation. If their anxiety is really high, they don't want to engage. So, you know, educating the other people that are coming in contact with your clients, where you don't have as much control of that.

Melissa Persichini: 14:13

And then the second place that I was at, just the management was not great. So I had issues with, like you know the bathrooms not being as clean, or you know noise problems, or you know things that, again, are out of your control when you're renting from someone else. So those are definitely some of the reasons why you know and, of course, financially right, I'm not paying. I'm not paying rent right now, but I also wouldn't mind that if I had the perfect space. So those are definitely some of the challenges of being in person like the perfect space, so those are definitely some of the challenges of being in person got it.

Dr Andrew Greenland: 14:46

And when thinking about um, because you you've obviously niched down on women and um, or young women, what do you see as some of the unique needs and challenges of women and girls in a virtual therapeutic environment, having gone sort of fully virtual now?

Melissa Persichini: 15:00

um, that's well, I would say the biggest challenge comes with the younger population. I definitely do not have because I see 16 and up. I don't currently have any clients that are under I would say my youngest client is probably around 19 or 20. And a lot of that is just they don't feel comfortable doing virtual sessions from home where the parents are there. I get a lot of that is just they don't feel comfortable doing virtual sessions from home where the parents are there. I get a lot of like I know my mom's going to be listening and you know she says she's not, but I know she's going to be listening. Or I get a lot of like, you know, because they feel like they can't. They can't speak freely, whereas adults can kind of control their environment more and make sure that they have privacy to do the sessions. Teenagers don't feel like they have that, even if the parent says that they do. They just don't feel comfortable talking about certain things when their parents are there.

Dr Andrew Greenland: 15:55

And do you have to put any specific adaptations in place? Obviously because you're trying to establish the privacy and who's in the room, that kind of thing. What do you have to do differently in that kind of encounter?

Melissa Persichini: 16:06

So when I have that, I will, you know, usually talk to the parents in the beginning and say look, it's going to be really hard for them to do this. So you know, I would really encourage you to make sure that they have privacy. Go, turn the TV on, put on the bathroom fan fan, do whatever you can to make sure that there's noise in the background so they don't feel like you're sitting there listening, because even if you're not, they think you are and they're not going to talk. And it's not going to be productive if I can't get them to open up because they're afraid of what you might hear.

Dr Andrew Greenland: 16:34

I understand okay. Um, if you were, if you're going to start over building a virtual therapy practice, what might you do differently? Because you've obviously had experience, you've worked in the in-person world. You're doing the virtual world. Now, looking back, how would you do, how would you build this from scratch, if you had to start again?

Melissa Persichini: 16:55

that is a great question. Um, I think that you know what I would do differently is already in place. I feel like I have I have a colleague that's going to be starting a virtual practice and I think you know, just, you know she's talking about like the nightmare of getting paneled with insurance and, you know, having to do to bill insurance, and the thing is is now we can use EMR, which it makes life so much easier. Billing is so simple, you know, and I told, I told my colleague, I said it's really not going to be any problem for you. When I first started doing this and they had nothing to do with virtual, but it was just when I started doing this 10 years ago I had these big paper forms and you had to, you know, handwrite everything, send them off. You know you wouldn't get paid for like probably a month, month and a half. It was terrible. And now everything is online and so it makes everything so much more streamlined and easier and just much more efficient.

Dr Andrew Greenland: 18:00

Amazing. I mean, I'm in the UK so we don't have quite the same challenge around the billing that you do in North America. I mean, I know I've spoken to a lot of people on these calls and that's been the number one niggle point for many, many clinic-based businesses. How have you managed to navigate? Have you found a solution? Have you found the winning formula to make it less of a chore, less of a burden on you and your practice?

Melissa Persichini: 18:25

Well, I don't know, that's a big question. I only work with certain insurances, which is, I would say, that that's definitely a trend. That I see is that more private practice are only going to work with a couple insurances and they're going to be more of the ones that reimburse at a higher rate and that are easier as far as billing. When I first started out, I was trying to take on more insurances to get more clients to have there be more options. But you have, like, I was taking certain insurances that would pay like $60 for a session, whereas another insurance is paying $130, $140. I don't want to take that insurance, you know, because at a certain point it's not about money. I mean, I don't think any of us go into this field because we just want to get rich. I mean, I think there's other things we could do, other careers we could do right.

Melissa Persichini: 19:17

We go into it because we love the work and at the same time we're also trying to you know, financially sustain and be our own families right. So for me, there was certain insurances that I took in the beginning that I will no longer take because it's just not worth it for me. It's for all of the work that I do. It's just not worth it.

Melissa Persichini: 19:40

And because that's a trend and a lot of that is happening, you'll see that in more in like your community mental health. Obviously they'll take all the insurances and certain clinics will take all the insurances, but a lot of times it's newer clinicians that are not as experienced. They're not comfortable going on their own. That doesn't mean you can't get a good clinician, because that's where we all start, but it does mean that it's very likely they won't stay there for a long time because once they get good and they get confident, they don't want to stay there where they're taking all these terrible insurances. So yeah, I think once people are on their own, they're going to take the higher paying insurances that are easier to build, that they're not going to have to do all this back and forth type of stuff got it.

Dr Andrew Greenland: 20:27

So for the insurance being one thing you mentioned, you have an emr. Is there anything else you have in place in your practice to kind of smooth the administrative flow in the clinic? Anything that works really well processes you've got nailed to make your life easier so that you can focus on what you want to do. Just just curious, really.

Melissa Persichini: 20:45

I think it really that that's the magic bullet. Is just is is using EMR because I can stream, I can do everything through there. I mean, I used to have my own documents and I would email this to clients and then it was like, okay, now they're uploaded on my website and now it's just, I don't do any of that. They just they do. They do the intake forms right through the EMR. My documentation is all through there, my billing is all through there. So to me it's absolutely worth it for anybody that goes into practice to use an EMR because you can do everything through there and it's really not that expensive. It's pretty affordable to do that. So just have it all in one place is a lot easier.

Dr Andrew Greenland: 21:22

Cool. So what does the next 12 months look like for the wage center? What are your plans for the business going forward? I think you mentioned you are going to be bringing on somebody else, but where do you want to be in the next 12 months or so?

Melissa Persichini: 21:35

I'm not bringing on anyone else. You know, I'm really looking at different possibilities of possibly coaching. You know there's so many limitations when you are taking insurance and when you're licensed you know you're licensed therapist there's so many limitations as to what you can do, and I feel like a lot of people are looking for coaching as well, you know, in different areas. So, and then I'm actually in the process of writing a book and that is going to be focused on. You know, the goal of that is for women who are feeling like this pattern of women feeling very dissatisfied in their life because they are living the narrative that was created, which is to grow up, find your partner, get married, have the children, and then you will magically be happy. And then they do this, and then they come in and they're like I don't know why, I'm not happy, something must be wrong with me, and I can't tell you how many times I hear the narrative something must be wrong with me. Or, you know, I wish I should be more grateful or should be more positive in this, this toxic positivity that we have going around, which is just telling us that we should be happy. It doesn't matter what's going on. Be grateful, there's something to be happy about. Well, sometimes there isn't. And so if, if women feel like they're not happy or grateful, they feel like they are the problem, when in fact it's this pressure to be happy and to not have these different emotions that is causing the problem.

Melissa Persichini: 23:03

And again, this narrative that once you you get established in your life and you have the husband and the family, you're going to be happy. And then they get there and they feel really unfulfilled and then they start questioning did I marry the wrong person? You know what am I doing wrong? Instead of you're not doing anything wrong, you were. You have been spoon fed since you were a little girl the fact that this was going to make you happy.

Melissa Persichini: 23:26

Nobody told you to figure out what your dreams are. To figure out you know what makes you feel purposeful and fulfilled, to figure out your own interests and hobbies like that wasn't pressed upon you. So you know, you believe you're going to be happy once you get to this end goal. And then you get there and you're not happy and it's like oh, what happened? So you know? So this book is about women understanding that they are not the problem. It's releasing these chains, these oppressive beliefs about. You know what society tells us is supposed to make us happy and oh, by the way, you're supposed to be thin and beautiful and that will also make you happy. And then we have a bunch of people starving themselves and restricting and just living really unfulfilling lives because they're doing what they were told will make them happy.

Dr Andrew Greenland: 24:15

And it's like chasing this dream that never comes do you tell us what the title of the book is and when is it going to be available, and how can anybody that's listening to this get get their hands on it when it comes out?

Melissa Persichini: 24:28

the title is a work in progress. I am not quite sure what that's going to be yet. It'll definitely be out sometime next year. Um, and definitely just go to my website, wage centerorg. Um, and I have a blog on there as well. I'm trying to post things that are relevant for women. Um, and yeah, I'll definitely have updates on there about it.

Dr Andrew Greenland: 24:48

Okay, well, we'll definitely put that in the bio for this podcast so anybody who's watching it in the future they should be able to access your book when it comes out. So I'll definitely put that on there for you. Is there any challenges that you haven't cracked yet in what you do but you're determined to solve while you're working on?

Melissa Persichini: 25:05

You know, this is so interesting I was just talking to. I have a writing coach that I'm working with and we were just talking about this the other day and kind of like the you know the narrative of the book that I'm writing, and she's, you know, I said we're, we have this, this. I don't know if it's epidemic or what I would call it, but I would say again, what I talked about is like women get to this place and then they're like supposed to be happy, and what happens and I get this from so many women is that they have done all this work and they are continuing to grow and their partners are not, and so it's kind of like they're passing them up and then it becomes very, they're become, there comes an imbalance, um, and so it gets to be frustrating for both, both partners, because now, you know, the woman has made all this healing, she's done all this healing work, she's become more self aware and reflective and the partner hasn't, and they're they're not connecting emotionally, right, and the men are complaining you know, we're not having enough sex, you're not doing this, you're not doing that, and the woman is like I've done all of this work, you haven't done any and you're not doing this, you're not doing that. And the woman is like I've done all of this work, you haven't done any. And you know they want their partners to go to therapy and the and they won't. And so it's like you know they're they're dealing with, whether it's anger or ADHD, or a lot of men are just emotionally unavailable checked out, they're on their phones, they're, you know so they're. They're dealing with emotions by shutting down and withdrawing or becoming angry, and but they don't see that as problematic. But it impacts the entire family.

Melissa Persichini: 26:42

So it's just, it's like it's not within my scope to fix, but that is that is like the consistent issue that I see that is dissolving relationships. And so you know, for the men that are are willing to do the work and they say, okay, you know what I really want to work on this relationship. I want to better myself. They do therapy or whatever, and they grow and the couple really just flourishes. But for those that don't, there continues to be a lot of marital discord or relationship discord, and so I feel like this is something that, again, that's out of my scope. But you know, we need a man to kind of do. The other side of what I'm doing is to empower other men to work on their things. So because right now, I think that there's so much stigma, with men having emotions and men working on their things, and so women are doing all this work and men aren't, you know, meeting them where they're at, and it's causing a lot of conflict.

Dr Andrew Greenland: 27:43

Got it. Are there any metrics that you look at in your wage center as a business to sort of see how you're doing anything that you focus on from a business owner point of view?

Melissa Persichini: 27:56

I'm not I'm not a measure, a very like measured mathematical type of person, obviously I wouldn't be in this work right.

Melissa Persichini: 28:03

So for me, what I, what I will notice, is, you know, when I first start working with the client, they come in and they're just talking and talking, and a lot of times I have to kind of, okay, let's, let's slow down a little bit, let's take a breath, because they have so much to share.

Melissa Persichini: 28:19

And what I start seeing over time, if they're using some of the practices that I've taught them, is that they come in and they they're a much calmer energy, they are updating me, but they're able to say this thing happened and here's how I handled it. Or you know, this thing happened and I noticed this happening and I identify, you know, they're identifying patterns, they're able to reflect, they're able to see themselves and see how they showed up differently, and we talk about that. And then eventually they get to a point where they're like I don't really have much to say. And if that happens enough, then it's like okay, well, maybe it's time for us to step back a little bit and not see each other as frequently. And that always ebbs and flows, and any client that I've worked with knows that they can always do more sessions or less sessions depending on what's going on in their lives. So but that's really what I look for is that they need me less.

Dr Andrew Greenland: 29:06

Okay, thank you, and is there any? If you had a magic wand to solve one of the any challenge that you have in the business, whether it's an admin thing or a bidding thing, or an insurance thing, or whatever the other aspects of your business are, what would that be? What would that thing that you would like to be able to fix with the magic wand?

Melissa Persichini: 29:22

Gosh, that is a fantastic question. I don't know the answer to that. I feel like I'm sure it would be something with insurance. Just I think giving more permission to do broader services, to be able to maybe do an in-home session and to just not be so restrictive about what we can do, because I think people would benefit from even like having having a therapist in their space and to be able to do to see like what they do at home or how things go and be able to help them more.

Melissa Persichini: 30:01

And I mean that's available for community mental health, which is a different population that I'm working with, where it's not really therapy, it's more of just kind of showing up and what are the needs. But I think you know the people that I'm working with that are they're able to function and they're. They're you know reputable people that you wouldn't think they're in therapy. You know they're. They're working in administrative roles, they're working in finances, they're working in teaching, they're you know they have upstanding jobs. So they're able to function but just being able to have some more services available to them than like one hour a week.

Dr Andrew Greenland: 30:37

But this is services delivered by other people, or is this something you'd like to be able to do?

Melissa Persichini: 30:41

I'd love to be able to do that, yeah.

Dr Andrew Greenland: 30:43

Yeah, what would stop you? I mean, is there anything that would stop you from doing that?

Melissa Persichini: 30:49

Well, just with liability, with insurance, there are limitations.

Dr Andrew Greenland: 30:54

Where you're really not supposed to do that type of thing.

Melissa Persichini: 30:56

Okay, interesting yeah.

Dr Andrew Greenland: 30:58

Melissa, thank you so much for your time this afternoon. It's been a really interesting conversation, hearing about what you do, your approach, hearing a little bit about your book that's to come out, which I'm sure people will be interested in reading. But yeah, thank you very much, really appreciate it.