Dr Andrew Greenland: 0:00

Welcome to Voices in Health and Wellness. This is the show where we explore what's next in patient care, clinic innovation, and wellness delivery. I'm your host, Dr. Andrew Greenland, and today we're joined by someone who's been at the forefront of translating science into real-world clinical impact, Dr. Martin Moore Eed. Martin is a medical doctor and circadian scientist who spent decades researching how light affects human biology. He's the founder of thelightdoctor.com and also leads Circadian, a global leader in fatigue, risk management and 24-7 workforce solutions. His work has helped shift how hospitals, clinics, and corporations think about lighting, not just for visibility, but for health. So, Martin, thank you very much for joining us and welcome to the show.

Dr Martin Moore-Ede: 0:41

Well, Andrew, it's delight to be with you and uh look forward to the conversation.

Dr Andrew Greenland: 0:46

So maybe we could start at the top. Could you talk a little bit about um your role of the light doctor and circadian and how this fits into the broader mission of improving health outcomes?

Dr Martin Moore-Ede: 0:57

Yes, the whole issue is that um awareness of the healthiness of light uh you know dates back. Florence Nightingale knew that it was one of the most important things that patients should get access uh to sunlight during the day and being asleep in the dark at night, uh, written up in her textbook of 1860. By the turn of the century, uh people were being put outside in the sunshine, um, used curing all sorts of ills. But we've got very lax to do with light um uh with all our you know fascination with modern technology, antibiotics, um, and the rest of modern medicine, that actually uh we've got ourselves into a very adverse situation in that we're living under very unhealthy lighting conditions. So just explain it you know uh briefly. Um uh the for the first 10,000 generations of human existence, um, our ancestors uh lived outside much of the time. They're in bright daylight. Uh they slept in the dark at night. They might have candles and woodfires, but they basically slept in the dark. Um, and we've changed all that. We've moved indoors about 95% of the time, it's indoors in front of screens. Um, we use lights that we now know are unhealthy. So my whole work has been to identify this. Um it started back at Harvard Medical School, where I led the team that identified the uh clock in the human brain, the superchismatic nucleus, the circadian clock. We located it. We figured it out for the first time that it was indeed synchronized by light. No one believed the clock exists or that light was the key signal at that time. And then from there, we figured out how it related to all sorts of medical uh disorders, um, you know, not just sleep and fatigue, but also um immune disorders, cancer, diabetes, and the rest. More recently, my work has been to look for solutions in lighting because since about the last 10 years, since about 2014, when LEDs were introduced, we've been under a very, very artificial world driven by the visual appearance of the light and its so-called energy efficiency. That's what's been the focus. We got rid of incandescence, which actually we're now learning are much healthier uh than these LED lights. We got rid of halogen lights. Um, these the sort of the whole energy climate change, I fully agree with you know, doing what we can to save the planet, but not at the cost of human health. So, my my work has been in academia at Harvard Medical School for 23 years, um, in consulting to industry, that's the firm Circadian I founded 42 years ago with offices around the world, how you translate this science into the workforce, health, well-being, sickness, absenteeism, productivity, uh, accidents, injuries, and so forth. But more recently, into actually seeing if we're going into a new field, which is how do you create LED lights, um, how do you create lighting, uh, to actually identify the precise part of the light spectrum that is causing the havoc. The beauty is that it's actually a very narrow band of blue in the light spectrum that's causing the problem. Um, and so that's that that's a sort of a brief summary, and then we can dive into where you want to go.

Dr Andrew Greenland: 4:25

Lovely. So, was there a kind of key turning point that made you realize that light was being underleveraged in clinical care? Because you've obviously had this very long journey of interest in light, but what was the point when you realized ah, there's really something in this clinically?

Dr Martin Moore-Ede: 4:39

Well, I think the the big issue turning point was around the year 2000 when three major studies came out identifying the rate of breast cancer being, you know, 50% or more greater in people who were exposed to light at night. And that was people whether they were sleeping with the lights on or people working at night. Um, and that then led to the World Health Organization in 2007 coming out with a proclamation or a um decision that there was a uh it was a carcinogen, essentially, light at night. That then led um the I was already by my consulting firm consulting to over half the Fortune 500 around the world. And they came to me and said, Martin, what can we do? We can't do a thing, you know, we can't turn the lights out, we can't shut down our businesses, we have to run around the clock, we're running oil refineries, railroads, airlines, you name it, you know, um, we have to run nuclear power, etc. We have to run non-stop. And um, that's when I started to get serious about oh my gosh, there's a whole and by the way, other disorders were rapidly identified in terms of diabetes, heart disease, immune disorders, and and many more. So it was clear that we had to rethink lighting, and yet the whole lighting industry was racing towards this um these blue pump LEDs they use, which is the most efficient way uh to convert electricity into light, and regulations were put in place that were constraining this, and as I say, incandescence will be banned. And so that's the real turning point was realizing that here's all this sickness. It's clearly related to ill-design, not fit for purpose lighting in terms of human health. It's fit for purpose in terms of vision, you might even argue that um quality of light, but it's certainly not fit for purpose in terms of human health, and yet the lighting industry fundamentally doesn't think about health when they're selling lights, they're thinking about aesthetics and about energy utility bill costs.

Dr Andrew Greenland: 6:44

Interesting. So, what do you and what's your typical day look like at the moment? Are you still hands-on? Are you more focused on the research and development side? What's your kind of typical um way that you deal with do all this work?

Dr Martin Moore-Ede: 6:57

Well, first of all, the consulting firm I founded, um, I built a very strong team around the world, and uh my son Andrew actually showed a real affinity for this. Uh, and so I was able, as I got into this, um, taking a detour um out in terms of developing lighting, having to start a business, um, venture capital, you know, capital and all the rest of it to get that lighting business going. Um, I handed over the consulting firm to Andrew, and he's running that today, and he does it very well. So I just keep a, you know, other than keeping an eye on that, um, I'm not directly involved. Uh, my day is uh largely uh I'm in the and as I say, the last 10 years I've been inventing and putting into practice and so forth, and then selling the technology to a major lighting company where I served as chief medical advisor for the transition. So my day today is communicating. I mean, the biggest problem is getting the message out there. Um, it is uh, you know, like it's like DDT before Silver Spring, you know, before uh Silent Spring. Um uh Rachel Carson's book, which is over 50 years now, everyone was using DDT, spraying on everybody, causing all sorts of um ill health, and the book came out and it changed the um changed the whole view of it and it was banned after a while. So I've got a little mission in hand in the saying, look, light is as important as anything else, um, and we use incredibly unhealthy lights. And now if you've got a problem but not a solution, that's not too helpful. But actually, there are now solutions. We now have various types of light sources that are directly evidence-based proven to be beneficial for health. In other words, we can solve this problem. So the barrier is education. The problem in a market is always lining companies will say, well, we'll can build this stuff, but will anybody buy it? And if no one buys it, we'll just won't continue to build it. So you have to have the consumer demand, but consumers don't know what they want or what they need, and so it's this um education effort. Um, and so uh I've that's the real shtick I'm on. It's podcasts such as this, it's a book I've written called The Light Doctor. Um sales uh, you know, it came out last year. Sales are climbing just in the last month, it's been increased, ramping up 20-fold above the previous months. I mean, so it's starting to really take off. Uh, a lot of people buying because it's a book. If I can just give a brief uh statement about it, it's a book that explains this to the every person. In other words, it's aimed at the average person who's interested, explains it all, explains what the problem is, explains the solution, explains how you can find the solutions and so forth. Um, and sort of translates this science uh for a for a general uh general audience. Um, and that is something that I'm doing there. Um, and I'm also you know writing articles. I have a Substack newsletter every week or every couple of weeks that I get out on this. Um, and I've got various social media channels like Instagram and uh um and LinkedIn where I'm um again pushing out that message and it's gathering speed, which is exciting. So that's my effort is how do we get the word out there? Because unless there's a demand, you know, um then the solutions don't come. You've got you've a chicken and egg, you've got to solve both at the same time.

Dr Andrew Greenland: 10:38

Got it. So thank you for mentioning your book, and we will put the details of your book on the podcast website so people can get some more information and get a copy. Um, I'm doing my bit for patient education. I talk a lot about light in functional medicine, probably not to your level, but um, I do reference you know the whole issue around blue light screens and the quality of light in the household. So I take a very holistic approach to chronic illness. But what do you think are the big things that people do not know about light? What are the the holes in the messaging that you're trying to fill with your communication and your messaging?

Dr Martin Moore-Ede: 11:10

Well, it's not a question of colour, in other words, people think just by changing the colour, a warm colour versus a cool colour, you know, and that the problem with that is it's still for most lights in the stores today, that it's based on a blue pump. In other words, it's um it's a blue LED chip that then has got phosphors over it to create white light, but essentially you still get a big spike of blue. So, people, it's not just a question of color tuning, that's not the solution. Um, it's really the content of light. But it's hard to see the content of light, what's in the light. Um, basically, for you know, just for explaining to a general audience, uh, white light is like um it's comprised of all the colors of the rainbow. Um, it's also comprised of ultraviolet light you can't see, and infrared light that you can't see. That's natural daylight. Um, but with a spectral devices like spectrophotometer, you can tease out every one of those colors, the the violets, the blues, the um uh the greens, the yellows, the reds, and so forth, and how much of each of that part of the spectrum. And it turns out that every part of that light spectrum has some biological or medical significance. So it's fascinating. You know, some of the light that's down at 380, which is in the deep, deep violet, barely visible, is actually um has an effect on blood flow in the eye in the developing eye and whether you're going to get myopia as a child or not. Um, and yet we block that um with our windows, we block that out. Uh, if you go to the violet, it's on the violet, it's a disinfectant of the 405. Down to 420, uh, a violet uh blue color. Uh, you that's a that that's a part of the spectrum that is um alerting. It actually produces cognitive performance and alertness. Uh, as you get into the um, as I say, we've talked about the aqua uh blue or uh um the uh around 480, which is the circadian clock resetting, and all this you can be mapping by receptors in the eye, uh opsin, which are the photochemicals that are detecting it, different opsins. Um, and then of course, when you get into the uh red part of the spectrum, that now is shown to be very important in terms of um uh cell cellular health and healing. Healing happens much faster with red light. And when you get into the near infrared, fascinating, this is the spectrum that's you just can't see, but it's still lots of it in sunlight, it contributes to warmth. Lots of it, by the way, in incandescent light bulbs that we're missing today. But that is penetrating the body. So sunlight goes all the way through the human body and out the other side. People don't realize the that infrared portion of it, and what that does is generate mitochondrial performance. Mitochondria are those little organelles inside cells, the little energy-producing packets produce the ATP, uh, produce the energy uh in the body, and also uh and they're critical to health, and um, they get boosted by that infrared. So, one of the bottom lines, by the way, is never want to miss it on any conversation, get out in the morning every day. By the way, the big effects are in the morning, particularly in the first half of the morning. That's when the glue is so critical to setting the second clock. That's when the infrared is so effective at boosting and uh and uh uh improving glucose metabolism, but also increasing mitochondrial function and energy production. So we're learning it, it's it's a rapidly developing new papers coming out every day, very rapidly developing area. But we know enough now to know that sunlight is enormously helpful, and we know also know a lot to know that blue rich light at night is enormously harmful, and so we know enough to start designing solutions which are going to get better and better over time.

Dr Andrew Greenland: 15:06

Interesting. I mean, I'm getting patients to do a lot of the things that you talk about, so this really, really resonates. Um, are you seeing more awareness or demand around topics like light exposure, sleep health, circadian alignment from younger patients? Do you get any sense of younger patients more aware of this stuff, or are you really having to educate everybody?

Dr Martin Moore-Ede: 15:26

Well, I think it's educating everybody at this stage. Um, and um, it certainly is interesting. I I see a broad spectrum of people, they come from different areas. Um, you know, the audience that I end up speaking to most of the time are health conscious people, particularly people get health conscious, most health conscious, I find, when they get married or get have a partner and they start having children and they start concerned about their health and their child's health is a very good time. So health conscious parents is a great uh group of people. Um, but I'm also seeing a lot of interest in in an aging population because exposure to light daylight is amazing, effects and in fact increasing lifespan for up to five years, longevity, not healthy longevity. Uh, golfers, for example, who play a lot of golf, they're gonna spend two, three, four hours out when they play that golf outside, live five years longer. That's 300,000 golfers in Sweden compared to 300,000 age-matched, socioeconomically matched non-golfers, right? Five years extra life. Um, and I don't think it's all the exercise of swinging the club. I think a lot of it's got to do with the sunlight. So learning that longevity question. And then, as I say, I think there is um the lighting industry is um fascinated by this. I mean, they see this. I think there's a general acceptance of the lighting industry, all lights are gonna be circadian. Um, I led a team of 250 scientists around the world who've done and published the most work in this area and published it recently, came out this consensus study that all lights are going to be need to be circadian. The industry gets that. They just are waiting for this demand to justify the investment and walking away from what they traditionally do. Right now, unfortunately, 98% of what they produce on the store shelves and installed in buildings is these um unhealthy static blue-rich lights. And static means they don't change. Critical thing about lighting has to change. What you need to see during the day is radically different from what you need to see uh during the nighttime hours.

Dr Andrew Greenland: 17:38

Got it. What um happened during the pandemic? Because we were stuck inside for long periods of time. Did you notice anything from a clinical scientific point of view around lighting and um how it affected us all?

Dr Martin Moore-Ede: 17:51

Oh, I think it was part of the general malaise and ill health and so forth at that time. Um I I do know, I mean, I think the most um insightful studies are some of these, uh, for example, the Biobank study done in the UK. Uh 86,000 people who were given light meters to track how much light they saw during the uh they were exposed to during the daytime and then during the nighttime. And if you divide it up the those who saw the most daytime light, um they had less diabetes, less cardiovascular disease, and so forth, um, less psychiatric illness. In fact, the difference between about a 20-30% difference in psychiatric depression, anxiety, and a lot of the ills of our time, quite frankly, I think can be associated with being indoors. Um, I've been reading papers recently suggesting that the crisis of infertility, in partly, you know, in declining, you know, we're not meeting the 2.2 child children per woman needed to sustain a population, is partly related to sperm motility and so forth, and that's in turn related to light exposures. I think we're finding there's a so many parts of our modern life uh are fault. Now, what we've done, by the way, you might say, what was the lifespan when Edison invented the light bulb? Well, the average lifespan was 39 years. Now our average lifespan is maybe 79 years or 78 years, somewhere like that for the average person. Um might say, well, gosh, you know, changing the LED lights has clearly been that would be a totally false conclusion. Um, in fact, our lifespan is plateaued with it went down during COVID. It really has barely crept up, and we're sort of stuck there. I think there's a potential to increase the average lifespan by five, 10 years. Um, uh if we got our lighting uh diet right. And I use the word diet, by the way, intentionally because huge attention to nutrition. I mean, one of the first things that struck me is I wrote my book, The Light Doctor. Um, it's called Using Light to Boost Health, Improve Sleep, and Live Longer. Subtitle, it's available on Amazon and in your local bookshore. Um, but when I wrote that book, I went to some of the publishing houses and I realized oh my gosh, um, Penguin Random House, the largest public house of um publisher in the world. 1800 books on their list, active list about diets and nutrition. 1800 books. One book on their list about lighting and health, and that was in 1913, I'm sorry, 19 um it was uh came out 19. Well, it came out before LED lights existed, right? The only book on on the list. So it was like so. We use the word light diet. That whole process of what you know, what is your light diet? Is your traditional diet? What is junk food? What is junk light? What is ultra-processed light, the LEDs, junk, ultra-processed light, junk, ultra-processed food. Let's translate that language. It's exactly equivalent, uh, it's a wonderful simile. Um, and uh I think it gets the message across. So that's one of the messages can people think, and that's why I say, you know, the light we see is important to our health as the food we eat, the water we drink, and the air we breathe. Um, and that's that's the bottom line message of my book, um, uh The Light Doctor.

Dr Andrew Greenland: 21:31

Thank you. So, what's working really well with your mission and business right now? I mean, obviously it is a mission, it's also a business, but what's working particularly well for you right now?

Dr Martin Moore-Ede: 21:41

Well, it's a really a mission, it's a mission business, yes. I mean, in other words, the the business is decided one way or the other stuff has to be paid for. When I was in academia at Harvard Medical School for 23 years, um, I had to go out and get all those uh government grants. Um, fortunately, I moved over to the US because of that, quite frankly, because the difficulty getting sizable funding. Uh, that's why I went over to Harvard to do my PhD instead of doing it in in the UK. Um, and I got grants from NASA, National Institute of Health, National Science Foundation, millions of dollars. By the way, I'm so glad I'm not doing it in the current era, our current administration in the US, I'd be stymied totally. And so, but let's get aside from politics here. Um, but I was able to do a lot of work with that funding. But that's funding, all right? And so you're you and and those foundations and others that are founding you, that's a source. If you want to go out and do it without applying for government grants and funding, which is a long process, then you have to money has to come in somewhere. It either has to be a business that creates money, um, you know, whether it's selling books or consulting services and so forth, um, or it has to be a product and so forth. So uh, and to get there, you you also need to raise money out. Well, either way around, it comes I actually like the freedom that we have um to go exactly the direction we want. Um, and where them, you know, and and and that's uh and and so I've been fine, I've done it both ways, um non-profit and for-profit. And it it actually, I think there's some real advantages for the for-profit in terms of uh uh the flexibility to to follow your nose in the direction you want to go.

Dr Andrew Greenland: 23:25

Okay, I'm I'm guessing that the the entire world is your total addressable market, but where do you see the most traction with this? I mean, is it corporate hospitals, private practices, um domestic? Where's where's the most traction with what you do?

Dr Martin Moore-Ede: 23:39

Well, I think there are some places where human performance is absolutely critical. Uh, and those are that's where my consulting practice is focused, which is 24-7 operations. If you're running something seamlessly 24-7, it's a control room of an oil refinery or a power plant, or uh it is a major airline or whatever it is, there we find the most interest because it really matters as to the performance of those people. You can't afford errors. Um, you know, I I think you know, when we started, we were pointing out that the major accidents of the last 50 years, uh, Three Mile Island, Chernobyl, um the Bopol instant uh chemical spill and and so forth, the XMFLDs all occurred in the middle of the night um in fatigue people. Um and so that was one of the original um emphases of what we're thinking about. But that critical performance, and so yes, so we started we when we originally developed these lights that's that bury the circadian, in other words, rich in blue during the day, zero blue at night, um, we put them into our first uptake point was um uh the 24-7 operations, uh, put into 65 different Fortune 500 companies, adopted the lighting, and so that was the first place we got got going because they really care about the end result, um, the bottom line. We're now seeing a lot of consumer interest. Um, the technology that I was involved in inventing and patenting and so forth, and then uh selling to a major lighting company is now being put into light bulbs for the home. That's a big market, a lot of people concern. And so uh we chorus produces the oyo, that's OIO, uh the circadian light bulbs. Um, that again is we can give you the website address for that. But those light bulbs automatically deliver the right formula, as it were, depending on the time of day, and they do it automatically, so you don't have to run around and change light bulbs or switch things on and off. Um, that can be done all automatically now in a light bulb. So that's the home market. I think hospitals um uh should be um a key target. Uh, unfortunately, um they're a tougher, tougher group to get to change. Um uh and um we've seen less traction there, although the evidence now is pretty clear that patients who are in rooms with windows get out of the ICU and 30% sooner. Um they get out there, they recover out of hospitals, they get out of the hospitals a day earlier, um, and so forth for all sorts of conditions. Um, so we know that this is hardly a new finding, as they Florence Nightingale knew it in 1860, but but you know, having proper day lighting, windows and so forth, and not putting people in windowless rooms is actually a pretty important part of health. And if you've got a windowless room, you should be putting in circadian lighting into it, which has the right components to it, uh, not just putting in static LEDs. Um, and so um, yeah, so that's part of it. I mean, I when I was uh I started off doing a surgical internship uh on my way from medical school through then to a PhD at a surgical internship uh as a junior resident, and uh and I was working these 36-hour long shifts under bright fluorescent lighting 24-7. Um horrendous environment to be working in, and you know, as I say, uh that I aim to change if I can, but that's the that's probably the hardest. Um, and we're seeing um various uh office, I think wellness buildings and so forth, that people are becoming aware of it, but it's uh um it's an area that uh yeah, we've got a lot of people starting to ask for it. The key is getting to the right person. Who buys the lights is the key problem. So, for example, when we were selling lights, we found the lighting industry, when they sell lights, it's an incredibly, I don't know if you know how much it works, incredibly complex process. They have marketing rep rep rep companies that they sell that that then and they then they're lighting designers and then they're electrical contractors, and then they're distributors, and by the end of the day, the lighting company that manufactures lights has no idea where their lights go. They have no idea whatsoever. And all those people down the chain have no interest in human health, they're just selling, trying to sell the light at the cheapest cost they can to get the project. The problem is the person buying the lights tends to be the facility manager. He's only concerned about the energy costs of the building, no incentive whatsoever to care about the occupants. So the the real insight there was we've got to do something different. We've got to go great directly to the person who's responsible for the health and well-being and performance of the workforce. And if you get to that person, it might be a VP of safety or health, environment, it might be the plant manager or the operations manager that's got to have an operation running smoothly and effectively and reduced errors and so forth, and you get them, give them the specs, um spec lock, we call it, right? In other words, if you give them a set of specs that none of the regular lights can meet, and then give it to your facilities manager and says this is what you've got to buy, then you can get the job done. But most lighting companies don't have a clue how to operate in that uh world, um, except for one group, which is very interesting, the horticultural, you know, the um uh the lights for growing plants, um, everything from cannabis to tomatoes to whatever else, um, that is actually sold that way. They hire botanists to go and talk to the owners who themselves are often botanists who have botanical training, uh, to pick the right light spectrum for health. And the sale avoids all this channel of um uh people in the middle who actually quite frankly. Frankly, until recently, we haven't been caring. We're now educating them, I will say, and we're trying to do very hard to try to educate those channels. But it's such an amorphous and inefficient way that lights are sold today, that that's one of one of the challenges. You know, I'm digging you a bit into the realities of the problem.

Dr Andrew Greenland: 30:17

No, I was I was smiling, and um when you were talking about hospitals, I'm still a hospital clinician as well. This completely resonates because the entire hospital is fitted with sort of cheap strip light. And I'm basically subjected to this on a daily basis, and there are lots of windowless rooms, and you're right, the patients are in windowless rooms. So all of this stuff completely resonates. So I guess I mean, aside from the procurement, which I think was what you were just detailing now about the difficulty in getting quality lighting into a big institution, are there any other major sort of challenges or bottlenecks that you have in the work that you do?

Dr Martin Moore-Ede: 30:49

Well, one of the big bottlenecks has been the product, because the lighting industry is um another okay, this is an industry I've had to learn from scratch about, right? But uh a major lighting company has millions of SKUs. In other words, millions and millions, of slight varieties of every type type light fixture. You can't possibly make all of those circadian. And so, but on the other hand, the customer in the lighting industry is used to be able to choose any um type of fixture they want. Um, and so we've got a balance of saying, okay, there's only a limited number of circadian fixtures, you can't have every single one, um, because that would take an impossible amount of time to do. Um, and so that's one of the challenges, also, is there. But we're starting to see more and more circadian lighting products come in the market. And as I say, it's it's a risk for that lighting company to do it because they don't know whether the market is there. But on the other hand, you can't sell them unless the products are available. So that's part of part of the challenge, having having the right mixture, whether it's troughers, you know, those ceiling fixtures, uh, whether it's the linear type fixtures or the down lights. You know, you need the the sort of typical group of lighting uh products in order to light a space.

Dr Andrew Greenland: 32:10

So, Martin, what's next for you in the next six to twelve months with your uh mission and your business?

Dr Martin Moore-Ede: 32:16

Well, I think uh it a little bit more of the same. Um I'm look I'm looking at the possibility of producing a next edition of the book because the science is moving ahead. Um, and that's a question, you know, is it a brand new book or is it um you know an updated version of the present one? So that's something I'm really looking at. Um, but I think right now there's you know the the core message is has been resonating so well with the Light Doctor that I'm um really focusing on trying to get uh trying to find you know how to get that uh larger audience. Um I did a lot of work in the you know my early days at Harvard, um a lot of uh media uh opportunity, you know, I was all over the BBC and um I did a one-hour documentary for the BBC um about the science of fatigue and circadian clocks and so forth. Um I think we need to do one like that, uh do a documentary or something like that on this topic. Um, I um was also on the Today's show, Good Morning America, and all those. So, you know, the size of the audience matters in terms of reach. So I'm um so I talk to anywhere I can, uh including your podcast, um, but I'm looking to get that word out um to a broader audience. And you know, I think people need to hear the message, and I find that it resonates extremely well. Most people have not got a clue about this topic, you know, they've never really thought about light. Um, all they think about is you'll flick on the light switch and lights are available, and that's all I need to know. Um, and light is so much more than vision. It's uh most of the importance of light is to do with health. And um that's the message uh that I'm looking to get out in whatever creative ways I can.

Dr Andrew Greenland: 34:07

Well, on that note, Martin, thank you so much for your time this afternoon. It's been such a thoughtful conversation. Really appreciate your insights, not just around light and health, but also how you're kind of trying to get your mission out to more people and do some wonderful, wonderfully good work. So thank you very much for your time. Uh, very happy to put your details of your book on the website and any other details you'd like us to promote for you. Um, but thank you again for your time, really appreciate it. It's been a very interesting conversation.

Dr Martin Moore-Ede: 34:34

Well, thank you, Andrew. I've enjoyed it.