Dr_Andrew_Greenland: 0:00

Welcome to Voices in Health and Wellness, where we speak with frontline leaders shaping the future of care in clinics, communities and beyond. Today's guest is Amy Voler, Managing Director at Hair GP, a regulated hair restoration clinic based here in the UK. What makes Amy's perspective unique is that she's not only running a growing private clinic, she also brings a strong clinical background, including work in neurodisability care at the Royal Hospital for Neurodisability and running youth health services in Battersea. So, Amy, welcome to the show and thank you very much for your time this afternoon.

Dr_Amy_Vowler: 0:30

No, thanks for having me. It's a real pleasure to be on.

Dr_Andrew_Greenland: 0:33

Wonderful. So maybe we can start at the top. Could you talk a little bit about your journey and from your work in neurodisability and youth health to where you are today running Hair GP?

Dr_Amy_Vowler: 0:43

Yeah, absolutely. So I've been a GP, well, I've been a doctor for about 11 years, been a GP for about six, did medicine a little bit later in life, had a bit of a mid-20s crisis, decided I want to be a doctor, and kind of went back to do it as a second degree. And I absolutely love being a doctor, I love the patients, love their stories, that side of it. And I've sort of over the last couple of years curated a bit of what we call like a portfolio GP career. So I do lots of little different jobs on different days of the week. So yeah, absolutely. I run a youth clinic in Battersea, which I really love. It's all about mental health and supporting young people kind of going through a difficult time on a number of the estates in Battersea. And I also work as a sort of more care home GP at the Royal Hospital for Neuro Disability, which is supports people of all ages with brain injuries. When they can't go home, they live with us. So both of those are kind of challenging but rewarding jobs. And I also really love being a GP and sort of the women's hormone health and the hair side of it and things like that. And I've always had a real passion for hair. And over the last couple of years, I've done lots of extra training in it, been lucky enough to train as a hair transplant surgeon. And what I suppose the unique angle that I'm coming at with the clinic is that I think there's not a lot of women in the industry, it's quite a male-dominated industry. And lots of women really are struggling with hair loss. And I think it's a little bit like menopause in that a couple of years ago, maybe a decade ago, people weren't really talking about it. And I feel like hair just got sort of pushed to the side as more of a beauty thing rather than a medical thing, but it's very much a medical thing, in my opinion. And there's so much that you can do, and it has a huge impact on people. So what I really enjoy with my private clinic is just having more time with people. The NHS, unfortunately, is due to a strange also kind of quick crushing with people, but I get more time, I can do extra sort of tests and extra things, or properly examine them and come up with a treatment plan that hopefully really works for them, just gain some confidence back. And I think that my kind of background is the GP and the holistic side of it, and especially for women, the sort of hair hormone side is um, I hope, really valuable to them. But yeah.

Dr_Andrew_Greenland: 2:42

Fascinating. Um, you and I discovered that we're both Richmond locals, or at least um we're just down the road if you even if you're not technically in Richmond. Has that shaped any of your work or the kind of clients that you see?

Dr_Amy_Vowler: 2:53

Um, yeah, some sort of South West London always they're kind of around that neck of the woods. Um I think it does. I think uh yeah, I suppose you've got people in that area where you've got a real mix, I suppose, all of South West London. You've got patients who are uh from very deprived backgrounds um who can only access the NHS, and there's kind of all that side of it with my youth clinic and the NHS work I do. But then you've got people that maybe do, I suppose, have a bit more disposable income or able to kind of seek more medical help. And I suppose the the people that I'm able to help, but I think I feel with my NHS hat on, always a bit guilty about that side of it. So I've done lots of blogs, um lots of educational videos. Um, I've done some teaching at St George's Medical School to the GP trainees just to try and help, I suppose, spread the knowledge and combat misinformation in a free way. So, because obviously, absolutely everyone can't afford private health care, but I think everyone should have access to information really. So that's kind of what I'm trying to build alongside the practice, really.

Dr_Andrew_Greenland: 3:54

In terms of I'm sure there's a very large repertoire in what you do in your hair GP practice, but can you give us a sense of what the patient journey might look like, maybe with a typical presentation in mind? Just because it's probably something a lot of people don't know a huge amount about. They know it exists, but what does the journey look like for them?

Dr_Amy_Vowler: 4:10

Yeah, of course. Um I think often they come to me and they've Googled it aggressively. Um I think they've been spoken to friends, spoken to family, spoken to the hairdresser, maybe um become a bit of an expert patient in their own journey. So as I suppose a typical patient could be someone that's really struggling, a woman maybe in her sort of thirties or forties, struggling with hair shedding. Um and that could be due to her hormones, or it could be due to sort of an acute thing called telage and a fluvium, which is where your body is under stress and the hair follicles shed and fall out. So the hair is coming out in like massive clumps in the shower, in the hairbrush, everything. Every time people stop washing their hair because they're so paranoid that more is going to come out and it has a real impact. They stop going out, stop seeing friends. So by the time they come to see me, they've often got what I described as like a graveyard of products. They've been to, they bought every vitamin, every mineral, every shampoo, every whatever, kind of taken more of that approach to it, and nothing's really stopping the shedding, and they're feeling a bit panicked. And then when they come along to me, I try and I suppose just get back to the basics, like what's actually causing it, what's the root cause of it. And once you work out what the cause is, you can then put the right solutions in. People tend to kind of scattergun their treatment, and I think I'm guilty of it as well. You kind of Google it, give something a go. But actually, if you find the right treatment for the cause, everything will settle in. Um, and hairs a bit like tapas, there's never one thing, it's never, I suppose, just a vitamin deficiency. So, for example, some common causes are iron deficiency, vitamin D deficiency, zinc deficiency, um, people that have lost weight very rapidly with Manjaro and Azempic is something I'm seeing a lot of at the moment. Um, also, you might have women that have got like an underlying kind of genetic female pattern hair loss, which is just the hair loss that happens as you get older and your hormones change. And then actually, this acute shedding has really highlighted what was kind of creeping on in the background. So it's about treating both of those things side by side because if you just treat one in isolation, you're not gonna get the result that they want. Um, so it's quite holistic. Um, I do trichoscopy, which is I think one of the most key important things about working out what's going on with someone's hair, which is why I do pretty much 99% of my consults face-to-face um rather than online, because you need to have a proper look at the hair to see what's going on, see what's happening with the follicles, and that helps you work out whether is it just shedding or is there a hormonal sort of aspect to it? So that can be really helpful. Um, and then in terms of the next part of the journey is medications and treatments. Some people love medicines, some people hate them. Um, some people are willing to take a tablet a day or use a serum a day, other people are too busy for that, and actually they'd rather just do an injection once a month. So there's lots of different options, and the problem with hair is it's such a long journey. Whatever you choose to do, you kind of need to continue for as long as you care about your hair often. So it needs to be something that's going to fit in with your lifestyle. So I think it's about making it affordable and manageable with someone's days. Everyone's busy, no one's got time for a million-step hair care routine. It's about little small changes that can kind of help them. Um, so that's kind of tends to be the patient journey. And then I I follow them up after a year if they need it sooner, if they've got any questions. Um interesting.

Dr_Andrew_Greenland: 7:16

So it's a very holistic approach, a very longitudinal approach. This is not a quick fix, and you you spend the time to kind of watch their progress over time, which I think is fantastic. I guess a lot of people think that hair restoration is cosmetic, but I think you've described it as a much deeper process. What do you wish more health professionals understood about hair health?

Dr_Amy_Vowler: 7:35

Um, I think I suppose that it is medical. I think um people, and even myself, I suppose, before I became so interested in it, I was sort of guilty of thinking it wasn't really necessarily a GPO doctor problem, but I think it absolutely is. Um, kind of lots of conditions are all kind of recognised by the World Health Organization. They've all got what we use, sort of ICD codes for them, kind of their medical conditions that should be treated as that. So I suppose, and some most healthcare professions are amazing and they take it seriously, but I think other people perhaps feel that it's a gap in their knowledge and aren't quite sure what to do next. Um, there's some very good, nice guidelines on it, they only kind of go so far. Um, I suppose the key takeaway really is um blood tests, especially in women. Um, so ferritin, for example, um, the normal range for ferritin in women is kind of over 15. But actually for hair, you need it really over 50, 70 up to 100. So lots of people kind of get told, oh, your ferritin's fine, your bloods are fine, just kind of move forward. And actually, their bloods are absolutely fine for normal health, they're not going to kill you, they're not gonna, but actually they're they're not fine for hair. So I think that's something that I've lots of patients come to me having had that experience with a healthcare profession of some kind. Um, so I think, yeah, I suppose just taking people seriously, um, which I think can be from the other side incredibly difficult in a 10-minute period when you're trying to juggle a million other things.

Dr_Andrew_Greenland: 8:54

I think we could probably have a whole discussion about the difference between normal and optimal um test results. We won't go there. But I mean, based on what you've just said, are there common medical and mental health um issues that you think um are getting commonly missed by GPs in your experience?

Dr_Amy_Vowler: 9:09

Yeah, um I think sort of hormonal pattern hair loss is is not sort of so I think we're better and better as GPs about doing talking about HRT, being realistic about it and things like that. But I think it still tends to focus on things like um sort of hot flashes, kind of mood symptoms, which are obviously incredibly important, um, not to diminish those at all. But I think also looking at your hair, your skin, how those things kind of change is is just as important, and that forms kind of how you present yourself to the world and how you feel in your confidence. And I think the mental health side of it is massively underrated. Um, I think people just kind of quietly get on with it or don't, and they just start minimizing their world. And actually, even if you can provide that mental health support, even if you can't support the other side of it, I think that can be incredibly helpful for patients, just kind of going, I understand it's a problem to you, so and not sort of minimising it, I suppose.

Dr_Andrew_Greenland: 10:01

Thank you. Um, you've mentioned that your patients often come to you well googled, they've been on to Dr. Google, they've got their information. What are the biggest myths or misconceptions that you have to address with new patients?

Dr_Amy_Vowler: 10:12

I think the biggest one is that it's a quick fix, to be honest. Um, oh, you take this one thing and within two weeks your hair will be better and it'll all be fine. Um, the hair cycle is so frustratingly slow. We live in a I suppose a society where you've kind of got Amazon Prime, Google, Uber Eats, you click something, it's done, and we kind of get used to that way of living. But with hair, it takes at least kind of six to nine months, really, to see a difference with anything you're trying, which can be incredibly frustrating for patients because obviously you're desperate to get things better, but it's all about kind of telling them the little things they'll see in the early months to watch out for that are, I suppose, little new signs of growth and are showing they're moving in the right direction, and then just getting them to bear with the process and actually trust in the process, it will get better. You've got to give it time, um, otherwise, people aren't going to stick with the treatments and they'll just get going and stop and never really see the benefits. So I think time is one of the biggest things. And I think the other thing is that they don't have to spend loads of money. I think loads of them spent loads of money on vitamins, minerals, all these things that kind of say they're going to save it. And actually, most treatments are cheap and cheerful, for want of a better phrase. So, vitamin D, um, you can buy sort of a whole year's supply for five pounds, and everyone should really be taking it in the UK anyway. Um, if you need sort of multivitamins, things like that. Um, also lots of the shampoos and things, the really cheap ones are not wonderful, but the really expensive ones don't necessarily give you that benefit. So I think there's simple things like, for example, Nizeral, which you can buy test cases for five pounds, ketoconazole, which is amazing for hair growth when used in the right situations. So I think it's just about saying that, yeah, things don't have to be expensive, they're manageable, but what you do have to give them is time. Um and that's yeah, I suppose the main learning point.

Dr_Andrew_Greenland: 11:53

Thank you. I know you put a strong emphasis on ethics and evidence-based care. How do you ensure that your your clients get the best or the right treatment, even if that means turning them away?

Dr_Amy_Vowler: 12:02

Yeah, I think so I we I sort of try and screen people before they come to see me as well, in case I'm not the right person for them. Um, so I think that's important as part of it. I think I do a sort of different model to most of the other hair clinics. So most of the hair clinics um often offer sort of free consultations, but then actually when you're there, it's very sales-y. I've had patients come to see me who have spent kind of one and a half, two thousand pounds on these treatments, which actually, when you drill down to them, don't cost under £100 for all of it. So I think I try, and those it's just very sales driven rather than medic driven. So I view it more as it's a medical condition, it's a medical appointment. I'll have a chat with you, it's a full hour, um, and then there's no cost for things afterwards, if that makes sense. Obviously, if you choose that you want to have a course of injections, then different, but it's more there's no pushy sales technique. I'll tell you what I think is best for you, and often there's never one option, there's a couple of options, and I think ethically you shouldn't, you should never be selling to people, you should just be advising them and giving them a range of options. And also, I feel very strongly about evidence-based medicine, and actually, people should be informed, make informed decisions. So I've written a lot of my own leaflets and kind of information leaflets, so I always make sure that they basically go home with a library of leaflets that they have a read-through before they start anything, and that they can, I'm an open door so they can come back and speak to me if they've got any questions. I'd hate to think that someone was sitting at home thinking, I wish I asked that question, I wish I asked that thing. So, in terms of sort of follow-up and things, I try and keep a close eye on people. And evidence-based, I think the world of hair and the world of medicine, as we all know, kind of changes all the time. And I think one of the draws and challenges of being a doctor is trying to keep up with all those changes. Um, so I think when people are picking, um, either doctors or practitioners, just picking someone that is keeping up to date, has kind of got extra qualifications in it, is interested in learning. I think one of the key things I learned at med school is just be curious, be nosy, be curious. And I think if your doctor's curious and nosy, then you're pretty much on the right track.

Dr_Andrew_Greenland: 14:01

Fascinating. You've indicated that um you have a repertoire of things that you go through and it's a very comprehensive holistic approach. How often is actual surgery required and what sort of things are you doing surgery for? Because you mentioned you're a hair surgeon. I just wondered, is that a very small proportion of the work that you do and what does it generally involve?

Dr_Amy_Vowler: 14:20

Yeah, it's very, very small, I would say. Um so essentially the main thing we're sort of focusing on is medicines, and actually, no one should really be going for a hair transplant ideally until they're stabilised on medicines. So people often um view hair transplants as an alternative to medicines or a quick fix solution. And actually, the whole process of recovery of a hair transplant takes up to a year. You've then got all of those medicines, you're not really stopping time. So, what ideally you want to do before anyone even steps in a hair transplant clinic is get their hair loss stabilised on medicines. And there are a number of those that basically stop time and try and help block some of the testosterone and other things that are causing the hair loss and the regression. If you don't do that, what happens is you might transplant the front bit, for example, but you'll keep recessing and then you'll end up with this oxbow lake, and it's you just sort of want to protect what you've got and stabilise everything before you even get to that point. Um, I think hair transplants definitely have their place and they can be amazing for people, they can really improve their confidence. I think they tend to, on the whole, work better for men than women. Um, I think men you kind of the regrowth and things like that. They they do work in women, but in medicines tend to be better on the whole for women. Um, I think also you've got to pick the right surgeon. So I'm a member of BARS, and we have very sort of strict rules in order to be part of BARS as to what you do. So um you've always got to sort of see the surgeon, have a cooling off period. Um, in terms of making the incisions and the cuts, they should always be done by a doctor, they should never be done by a technician, it should be very much a doctor-led process. And unfortunately, some clinics in the UK, and especially when people go abroad to places like Turkey, they're just not running like that. You might see a doctor right at the start, but actually it's technicians doing it, and it's a medical procedure, it's an operation, it absolutely shouldn't be done by someone that is not a doctor. Um, so I think when people are picking who they go and see for hair transplants, picking someone that's a member of BARS and follows very strict, um, I suppose, ethical and moral standards is is really key. Um, but yeah, it's a good blend of both. I think there's never one solution. So I think it's it's I suppose I enjoy being knowing both sides so I can advise on both sides.

Dr_Andrew_Greenland: 16:25

Amazing. I guess running a regulated clinic is no small task. What are some of the operational challenges or turning points that you've had at Hair GP?

Dr_Amy_Vowler: 16:34

Yeah, I think um one of the um I suppose joys of being a doctor and doctor in a clinic is that it's so regulated, which I love because I like things to be done properly and done in the right way and a bit of a perfectionist. Um, but absolutely there's lots of legislation um that doctors have to follow that other people don't have to follow. So other clinics can absolutely um advise on hair loss and inject do injectables and things like that, but they're they're not as regulated. So we have loads of things from sort of CQC, which is the regulatory body, um, because you're treating a medical condition. Um I'm regulated by them. Um, I'm also regulated by um the GMC and kind of they keep an eye on doctors. Um setting up a clinic and a clinic perspective, CQC is is a tricky one at the moment. There's long waits to get registered yourself with CQC, up to a year at the moment because of the backlog. Um, so many practitioners like myself have practicing privileges that other but practices already have their CQC um sort of rights, I suppose, and we work under their banner. And then when CQC then approves us, then you're allowed to then move into your own space, basically. So I think that's a bit of a challenge for any doctor trying to set up their own clinic, is um just the wait for CQC is sort of a frustrating side of it. Um they're a really important organization, and what they do is absolutely key. Um, but yeah, just getting to them is trickier.

Dr_Andrew_Greenland: 17:55

Thank you. And what about these sort of the marketing challenges of doing what you do and promoting your work? Are there any particular issues there? Or and and also how do you recruit patients?

Dr_Amy_Vowler: 18:05

Yeah, I think I find that the hard bit, if I'm honest. I find being a doctor is easy and my bread and butter and what I'm used to. I think marketing and selling myself, especially as an NHS doctor, doesn't come very naturally or very easily to me. So it's been a bit of a steep learning curve in terms of everything. I think the approach I come to it is actually education. I think if I can, um all the social media and things I do is the aim to educate and empower people rather than get them in my clinic, if that makes sense. And I think a byproduct of that is that some of them will come and see me in clinic, which is wonderful. But I think it's I really enjoy the teaching, the learning, the empowering, that kind of side of it. So that's the kind of approach I've taken so far, which probably is not very business-minded, but is suits my kind of ethical standpoint, I suppose. Um, but I think it's a difficult world for doctors because we're not used to advertising, you don't want to, you should well don't want to and should never make false promises. Um, so I think it's it's tricky, is my opinion on that side of things. And I'm definitely learning every day. Every day is a school day.

Dr_Andrew_Greenland: 19:04

So and on that note, how do most of your patients come to you? Where do they find you? How how do they kind of find their way to your front door?

Dr_Amy_Vowler: 19:13

Um, word of mouth, lots of them. Um so I think people tend to have a nice experience and then tell their friends, and then it kind of exponentially increases. Um, and I think that's how sort of it's a good way for a private clinic to run is that if someone's had a good experience, then they refer you on. So that's how patients come in. I also practice, as I said before, out of a private GP surgery where I've got um practicing privileges, um, and they're a wonderful kind of community GP surgery and that runs there, and I get patients that sort of know me from there and I see them there. Um, and then actually more recently in recent months, sort of social media has become a bigger thing. So I've had people that kind of see me on Instagram, maybe watch some of the videos, learn a couple of things, but then they've kind of taken that journey so far, and actually they want personalised advice that's just for them, so then they then come and see me. Um, so I think it's a bit of a slow, slower burn process in a good way with the social media side of things.

Dr_Andrew_Greenland: 20:05

And as somebody who's managing both clinical quality and a growing business, how do you manage your time and energy across both from a kind of a personal perspective?

Dr_Amy_Vowler: 20:12

I think I'm not great at that. I think I'm a bit of a workaric and I tend to be naughty and do stuff in the evenings and the weekends and things like that because that's just when I kind of squeeze them in. And I also really love all my NHS work, so I'm very reticent to kind of give any of that side of it up as well. So I think I find the balance of those two very rewarding because it gives balance to my week, um, but also it is a bit of a juggle because you can't switch off one to do the other. Um I try and sort of practice what I preach, which is telling patients about kind of balance and doing things. So I've got a lot, I'm a bit of a water baby, love wild swimming, paddleboarding, being out on the water. So I think making sure I kind of fit those in each week is a non-negotiable, kind of stops me getting burnt out and keeps me going, really.

Dr_Andrew_Greenland: 20:55

Cool. I mean, do you have any other sort of major bottlenecks in the work that you do? Um, as you mentioned, I think social media and advertising is a tricky number and it's always a learning opportunity. But there are any other sort of bottlenecks that you have to face day-to-day in doing what you do?

Dr_Amy_Vowler: 21:09

Um, yeah, I think they're probably the main ones. It's kind of the marketing, getting it out there, and how much time do you kind of devote to that compared to other things? I think also um as a lot of setting up a clinic, there's just so much that you don't know and you learn as you go along. So you've got the regulatory side of it, you've got um and making sure that you're doing everything right and by the book and following all the right procedures. Um, and I think that kind of comes as you kind of get more experienced. And I suppose one thing I found is surrounding myself with people that do know better than me. So surrounding me by people that have run practices that are um CQC experts, people you can't possibly know everything. So I think surrounding yourself by people that do know better than you, and also I'm very much not afraid to say I don't know something. So I'm will always be the first one that'll throw my hands up and say I don't know, but I'll find out, or I'll ask someone. And I think approaching the business with a I don't know, but I'll find out, or I'll go and ask someone is the best way to be, really.

Dr_Andrew_Greenland: 22:04

Cool. I mean, do you think um Hale Health is starting to get the medical legitimacy it deserves in your experience? And obviously you've come from being in a GP world to doing this um area of specialisation, or do you think there's quite a long way to still go?

Dr_Amy_Vowler: 22:19

I think it's a really long way to go, um, is my honest opinion on it. I I think it's getting there and it's getting better and it's being taken more seriously, but I think um there's a long way to go. The training um for GPs and doctors hardly includes any hair, and I understand why it's a very short period and you've not got a great deal of time. Um, but I think I suppose opening hopefully seeing more people doing, I did, for example, a PG cert um in hair science, um, and it was really very intense. Um, but actually I really enjoyed it, I learned so much. So I think encouraging other GPs and other doctors to kind of, I suppose, get a special interest, find something that's supposed to be GPs will love being generalists, but it's also nice to have a special interest and something that you're really passionate about, and there's so many resources out there if you're willing to kind of search for them and find them, and shadow doctors and spend time with other professionals and join groups and go to conferences. Um, I've been lucky enough to sort of travel all over the world with this. I've sort of been to New Orleans, which is where my mentor is for hair transplants, um, been to Italy to learn under the Italian hair restoration. So I think um using it as an opportunity to meet new people, see the world and learn at the same time is a good combo.

Dr_Andrew_Greenland: 23:26

Thank you. And if you were to um do this all all from scratch again, build hair GP from scratch, would you do anything differently with everything that you now know?

Dr_Amy_Vowler: 23:36

It's tricky. Yeah, with the eye of Vetrospec, there's absolutely always things that you would do differently. Um, I think one thing that we tried for a while was Google Ads, um, and that wasn't massively successful, I think, because Google Ads aren't very positive about there's lots of things that are banned or not allowed um medically, which I understand why it has to be so regulated, but I think we focus quite a lot of time and money on Google Ads when it probably wasn't the right path to be going on from a marketing perspective, um, in terms of being naive and thinking, well, that's the way to get people to come and see us. I think focusing more on kind of the social proof side of things, so kind of social media, just people having a really good experience, offer a good thing, let people have a good experience, um, and then let them tell their friends. I think that's a much more valuable, a slower way of doing it, but ultimately a better way of doing it. So I think, yeah, if I did it again, I wouldn't touch Google Ads with barge pole, would be my ultimate result. I think for other people it's very successful. Um, but just for from my experience, I struggled with it.

Dr_Andrew_Greenland: 24:34

And if you could wave a magic wand and fix one thing in the business or in your in the world that you operate in, what might that be?

Dr_Amy_Vowler: 24:43

That's a tricky one. Um I think just being more out there, I suppose, getting the message more out there. I think that's one thing that I kind of struggle with in terms of just not only educating other healthcare professionals, but just empowering patients. So I think trying our best to kind of get it out there. But I think if I could make that bigger and better, that would be my ultimate goal. Because I think knowledge is power, and I think there's so much misinformation out there. I mean, look at everything that's kind of been in the media in the last week. I think um kind of getting trusted health information from trusted health professionals is so important in a world where you're bombarded with TikTok influencers and other things like that. So, yeah, legitimate honest health information, I think.

Dr_Andrew_Greenland: 25:25

Cool. And what's next for you and Hair GP? Any new initiatives, services, collaborations on the horizon that you're working on?

Dr_Amy_Vowler: 25:33

Yeah, um, I think hair's always changing, so I'm always kind of watching out for new medicines and new things. Um, there haven't been a great deal recently, but there's some exciting things in the pipeline. So there's sort of new medicines like the PP405 and other things that I think as steam clinical trials won't be a couple of years. There's lots of very interesting work being done out in Dubai and other countries with stem cells, which are um ethically tricky at times, and you have to be very careful about where you get them and things like that. So I think we're learning more about that side of regenerative medicine. Um, but I think, yeah, it's coming more into the forefront. I hope more research will happen. Um, also about grey hair, like there's not really any research done about grey hair, why people grey, um, we don't really understand it, therefore, there's no treatments. So I think there's lots of options for research, change, and I think the HGP I just want us to keep at the forefront of it. I want us to be offering everything we can to our patients as and when it's available and safe. Um, because the more options you have, the better, really.

Dr_Andrew_Greenland: 26:31

And for any other clinic leaders that are listening, especially those balancing clinical care and business growth, what's one piece of advice you would offer based on your journey?

Dr_Amy_Vowler: 26:41

Um tricky one. Uh balance, I suppose. Um, and I'm not very guilty, I'm very guilty of not doing this myself, but I think trying to set when you're setting up your own business, I think it becomes your baby, it becomes your pet project, and you are could be guilty of spending every hour on it researching, doing it, and then you never really take a break from it, and then that can lead to burnout. And I think in my NHS job before I came to this, one of the reasons that pushed me in this direction is that I did get absolutely burnt out. Um, I was sort of giving too much to too many people, spreading myself too thinly. Um, and ultimately it was sort of pushed me into a better place, forced me to look into new options and find something that was a better balance. But I think it can still creep in a little bit. So even if it's your business, it's your passion, it's what you're into, you still need to kind of create that balance, not burn out, spend time with friends and family, don't let it become all encompassing, basically.

Dr_Andrew_Greenland: 27:36

I'd really like to thank you so much for your um insights and well-rounded conversation, your holistic approach and how you help people with you know hair issues. I think we've all learned something really interesting. I think you're the only person I've spoken to that does this kind of work. So I'm very grateful for your time on this session. So thank you very much.

Dr_Amy_Vowler: 27:53

Perfect. Thanks so much, Jania. Thank you for having me on. I think yeah, information is power. So if anyone takes even one little thing away, then that's a bonus to me.

Dr_Andrew_Greenland: 28:01

Absolutely. And we'll put your details on the bio page so people can reach out if they want to and read more about what you do.