Dr Andrew Greenland: 0:00

Hello everyone and welcome back to Voices in Health and Wellness. This is the podcast where we sit down with the innovators, practitioners, and founders who are redefining what care looks like today. I'm your host, Dr. Andrew Greenland, and today I'm delighted to be joined by Peter Grinbergs, co-founder of EQL, a pioneering health tech company that's transforming the way musculoskeletal care is delivered. Peter started out in physiotherapy, working across elite sport and building a nationwide physio business before co-founding EQL. Now through their FIO platform, EQL is helping people get faster access to the right care with intelligent digital triage and innovative solutions that support patients, clinicians, and healthcare systems alike. So, Peter, welcome to the show. Thank you so much for joining us today.

Peter Grinbergs: 0:42

Thank you, Andrew. Yeah, it's a pleasure to be here and uh looking forward to chatting.

Dr Andrew Greenland: 0:46

So maybe you could just start a little bit about your journey and how you've ended up doing what you do at EQL. How where have you sort of come from and where you're sort of sitting now?

Peter Grinbergs: 0:54

Yeah, thank you. Well, you did a great job, by the way, of doing the introduction. So um, but just to add a bit more context, yeah. I mean, I'm I'm a physiotherapist by by background. Uh, as you as you point out, I started uh in elite sport, so I was very lucky. Uh, I always wanted to be that physio that ran on the pitch with the magic sponge. Um, and thankfully I was able to fulfill that uh dream quite early on in my career. So I worked for um a number of years um for a football club, we were in uh premiership football, and you know, I was super spoiled in that environment uh in terms of healthcare provision. Um, and I didn't know it at the time, but I I learned a lot about you know the impact of healthcare, um, specifically when you can sort of observe somebody getting injured, which is not something that typically happens in the private sector, and then be part of their recovery and be able to really control the variables of that recovery. And that that was something that really only sort of dawned on me when I left that that setting. But but yeah, I spent a number of years there. Um, and then I uh went on to set up a private physiotherapy business. I ran that for about 10 years. Um, I exited that company into a digital health business, and I spent a number of years working on what was uh kind of the start of the virtual GP kind of offerings, building out these digital platforms for GPs to be able to do consultations remotely. And it was during that period of time that I was really interested thinking about the problems that existed in that, I mean, in healthcare generally, but but specifically in my area of expertise, which was MSK. And again, really wanting to get back to that kind of environment where, you know, if you can get somebody into a pathway, into a recovery pathway or treatment pathway really quickly, how much of an impact can you have on their overall kind of health outcome as it relates to recovering from that injury? And the answer is you can have a dramatic effect if you get somebody early into a pathway, control the variables, you can do a lot to improve the recovery time and the overall outcome. And that's kind of where this idea for what we what we uh call fear came from. So yeah, that's uh that's to give a bit of context in in the uh in the background.

Dr Andrew Greenland: 3:08

So, what were the things, what were those moments of inspiration that made you change and do those different things? You know, starting off in physiotherapy, what was that thing that's saying, okay, I need to do something else, I want to do something else? And then again, when you've moved to the latest thing, what were those sort of moments of inspiration or the triggers to change direction?

Peter Grinbergs: 3:23

Yeah, I think the main one was just the frustration of seeing like the inefficiency in the in this in the service, and the inefficiency wasn't there for want of trying, you know, it's like everyone's trying their hardest to see the right patients and to do the right thing by their patients, but inevitably, you know, capacity issues, funding issues quite often are at play, um, and a whole range of other things when it comes to health, you know, literacy and understanding what sort of things you need to do. So I think, you know, personally it was born out of frustration because I'd come from a world where you know we would you know see someone have an injury and we'd say, well, four weeks, in four weeks' time, you're back on the pitch. And we guarantee we pretty much guarantee that in that sector, and that was just normal business, you know, and then moving out of that sector into the private space, where okay, private space, you would assume that people, you know, there's more access to healthcare potentially. But but even then it's like, why do these things take months in this sector? And and what is that all about? And for me, it was about, you know, quite often people sit around with injuries not really knowing what to do, where to go, who to speak to. You know, then they do try and do something about it, and inevitably they have five, six different conversations about the same thing every time there's a bit of a delay, and then eventually you get to see someone, and you're told, you know, a lot of time in the in my industry or in the MSK sector, it's like, okay, here are some things you can do at home, you know, go home and get on with them. And so I was just obsessed with this idea that why does it take you know months potentially to get to the point where someone just says, here's some stuff, go home and get on with it? Why you know, can we is there a way that we can use technology to improve the time-to-value metric in terms of getting them that advice straight away and getting back to this kind of ideology of like, you know, you give some of the right tools to kind of help themselves, and you know, can you get them to you know be better, uh quicker, back at work, quicker, you know, doing the things they love? So that I think for me, a lot of it came out of that that sort of frustration and then the realization that actually so much of that process is kind of unlocked through this exchange of data, health data. And if you can create a sort of scenario where you allow this seamless interaction of this this kind of health data, um, you know, can can you go you know some way down the road of realizing that vision? So I think fundamentally that's that's where the kind of motivation came from.

Dr Andrew Greenland: 5:49

That's really interesting. So um tell us a bit about the nitty-gritty of EQL and the platform and how you solve these problems that you know frustrated you from the outset.

Peter Grinbergs: 5:59

Yeah, so so um so equal, we is it's it's a bit of a play on the on the old kind of database language, SQL. And we were uh being a tech business, thinking of a way to kind of be clever about that. The idea behind Equal was, as I say, was to balance out the playing field on this data, like make make the exchange of information kind of on an equal level across kind of all stakeholders, clinicians and patients. So what we started to think about was okay, well, where is the uh where's the bottleneck? And the bottleneck is in that initial process of A understanding that you've got a problem, and then B being able to do something about it, right? And so we started to explore the you know the kind of entry points, which are typically a triaging process. You know, you either call someone or you have an appointment with a GP or you go face to face to an appointment. There's an element of triaging going on where the clinician's taking information, typically that's generic, standardized information. They're then using kind of various prediction rules to be able to say, oh, based on XYZ, the pathway for you is to go to A and E, or the pathway for you is some exercises, for example. And we just started to look at that from a kind of very um, you know, sort of sort of data-led perspective of okay, well, there are certain questions which are standardized, there are certain outcomes which are pathways which are very well defined by people like NICE or by evidence. And so, why can't we start to build a system that effectively replicates that kind of triage initial assessment piece in a standardized way, which is safe, reliable, um, you know, there's no barriers in terms of access. And and technology lends itself very well to that situation. And that and that's kind of where the journey started for us was okay, well, we'll develop this kind of digital triage piece, which is yes, still overseen and has an element of governance, which is still physically um kind of implemented, and that's always been very important for us to use technology to augment but not to replace. Um and that's kind of how it how it started to develop. So we we developed our triaging platform, and then we subsequently started to bolt in other pieces of the journey. So develops a self-management, uh supported self-management solution, which is a downloadable app for people who are appropriate and who are willing to engage in in kind of home-based recovery, which is still very much overseen by our our clinical team in the back end, um, and then started to kind of bolt in other bits, you know, outcome measure collection, and if someone needs a face-to-face appointment, what happens? And and just start to use the technology to really kind of fill the gaps and improve the user journey across that sort of whole continuum of care.

Dr Andrew Greenland: 8:49

Really interesting. Um, so what shifts are you seeing more widely in musculoskeletal care? Obviously, you you have a you have a um a role, you're trying to solve a problem, but in the wider world of musculoskeletal care, what are you seeing?

Peter Grinbergs: 9:01

Yeah, I mean, you know, the big the big one for me is is always this, you know, talk about how the the frustration's kind of created the initial the initial drive. Um, but still I've got a huge amount of frustration around healthcare generally, actually, about this need for it to always be reactive. And why is healthcare always just a reactive thing? And can we shift the needle to a situation where it's less of a reactive service? It's more of a proactive experience for the individual. And so, what does that look like? Well, for us, that looks like you know, prevention. Like, how do we crack the nut of prevention and mitigating the costs, the unnecessary you know, burdens, the unnecessary pain and discomfort and being out of work and all these things? Like, how can we shift the needle to a situation where we can proactively start to manage somebody's health before they start to need to consume a healthcare service? Um, and so that's certainly where our kind of where our vision is. I mean, more generally in the sector, you know, technology is still playing a big part in disrupting the sector, be that um, you know, intelligent triaging, or be that, you know, motion capture, or be that um, you know, the use of language models and AI. Um, but I think there's still, you know, uh despite all of that, it's like for us, it's like where are the problems still? What are the problems that we that we still need to solve? Um, and and it inevitably they still revolve around access and you know safety and being able to get help when you need it, and as I say, being able to move the needle to one which is more of a prevent preventative kind of uh scenario. So that's that's how we are kind of looking at it at the moment.

Dr Andrew Greenland: 10:48

Thank you. And what about um payer and provider expectations? How are those evolving? I don't know how it quite works with the funding in your model, but I'm just curious to know what where we're at with those kind of interactions.

Peter Grinbergs: 10:58

Yeah, so again, you know, we've we've historically being a reactive service, healthcare generally, still still predominantly in this sort of transactional kind of uh commercial arrangements where you pay you pay for a service effectively. You know, I see you five times, you get I I send your insurer five bills for treatment. We don't like that model because we think it's you know it's prohibitive on a full population kind of coverage scenario. So the the the reason I say that is because you know, people aren't necessarily incentivized to do the best thing for the patient uh in an efficient way and make that available to everyone. And our our ethos is you know, we should build solutions that are available for everyone, where appropriate, and should not be cost prohibitive to the payer. And so we we we are um kind of moving the needle in some respects to be able to say, well, we have a commercial model which is a kind of unlimited access for anyone that needs it. Um and where we want to take that is is more to a kind of value-based model where we say not only can we provide on a single price point access for everyone within the kind of agreement that we have, say, say it's an insurance company or say it's uh an ICB, we're saying, look, everyone in the area can access our tools on a fixed price point for you. So it's contained cost. Not only that, where we want to be able to get to is to say we can absolutely prove the value on that, um, and we can demonstrate that we are providing value across the full kind of care continuum. So this moving much moving much more towards this kind of value-based model where we where we kind of hold ourselves to account, expose all the all of the data and and demonstrate value across the full kind of care continuum. So that's for us, that's kind of uh that that's where we're aiming to kind of get to, because I think then we do really crack that you know equity piece and inclusive inclusivity piece, and we are able to really make sure that everyone gets gets the care that they need um in in an efficient and safe way.

Dr Andrew Greenland: 13:13

Thank you. Just for clarity, um, who are your clients? Are these actually insurers, employers, or individuals? How does it actually work at that level?

Peter Grinbergs: 13:21

Yeah, so we we are our clients are the payers, the healthcare payers. So we're we're we're exclusively to business, B2B, B2B to C, though, because we are trying to solve the problem for the individual user. Um, but yeah, it's the healthcare payer. So we we ideally go at system level. Um so we might go to the you know to the NHS and an ICB kind of level, ICS level, um, or or where we where we're not in at that point, it's can we cover a full kind of area for a GP or for a PCN, for example. Um, and in the private space, it's yeah, it's to insurance companies, to cash plan providers direct to corporates. Also, we have some some engagements where we're covering a full workforce. Um, so so yeah, typically it's to the payer because I think that way we're all aligned on on what needs to be done. Like if if the payer is is getting full full kind of coverage at a at a good um you know a reliable coverage on a on a good on good commercial terms, we are you know holding ourselves to account to make sure that we're putting the patient into the right pathway and we're making sure that they're in the right pathway because it's on it's in our interest, we're we're covering the full kind of cost of their care, then then actually we're aligned with the patient, with the payer. Like we have this nice trifector effect of kind of all being in the same kind of uh all having the same same intentions in terms of delivering good quality, high, high, high volume, high, high, you know, safe uh healthcare. So so yeah, that's to answer your question, is direct to payers. We don't have a B2C uh proposition. Um uh so yeah, that's that's how the commercials work.

Dr Andrew Greenland: 15:00

Thank you for that clarification. And what are your um enterprise buyers, whether the insurers, the employers, asking for in 2025 that they weren't two years ago?

Peter Grinbergs: 15:10

So there are again, it's it's we're in a bit of a unique position where because we're to some extent selling novel ideas with some of these things, like we we have a job also, a responsibility also to kind of uh kind of uh educate the market to some extent about what we think is actually needed. So the reason I say that is because it's not always clear. There isn't always a clear mandate about what people necessarily want, but they look to us to bring the innovation to make make make sure that we're providing the best quality service. So, so that's the kind of the kind of backdrop. I mean, people are, depending on who they are, they're interested in you know the our use of AI, they're interested in making sure that we are um holding ourselves to account in terms of value, and increasingly, because of our efforts to try and drive the agenda of prevention, they're interested in how we can mitigate the you know the MSK costs, whatever they may be in terms of absence, work absence, or in terms of return to work, or in terms of reduction of unnecessary kind of treatment costs, um all the while making sure that we're delivering value to the individual patient member policy holder. So, so yeah, it's about it's about continuing to improve member experience or patient experience, but also being able to do that in an increasingly efficient way whilst also evidencing that it works for everyone, you know. So, um, so that's kind of those are the highlights. But obviously, there's a lot of attention at the moment about how people are using AI and to what extent AI can answer questions here. Um, and so certainly that that's that's something which there's a lot of noise about at the moment.

Dr Andrew Greenland: 16:51

Thank you. Um so I guess you're always refining your model, but um, how is the way that your model works at the moment or the way that you're trying to shape it affecting the way that you're trying to grow your business and to get more partnerships?

Peter Grinbergs: 17:03

Yeah, I think absolutely we're always working on it. We, you know, there's this thing about product market fit that people talk about. I don't think product market fit is something that you ever just achieve. I think it's something that you kind of at a point in time, you may have it for certain things, but you're constantly pushing the needle out. And there's this idea of Moore's law, right? Where you know every 18 months the expectations of users double. Um, and there are other examples, obviously, tech technology-wise, about around how that works. So I think ever increasing expectations from users generally, you know, and we we our kind of mantra is you know, if we get happy patients, happy users, then that normally translates to good health outcomes. And then as a result, happy payers. So, so in terms of the refinement, there's a constant process of us looking at data, quantitative, qualitative, testing our assumptions in terms of new things that we might be bringing online, um, constantly evolving the way that the back-end system works in terms of is there new evidence? You know, are there things that we've learned from our own kind of uh sort of data sources? Um, and and and so there's this constant process of refinement, improvement. I say we're in a good position. I don't know if it's a unique position, but it's our position, certainly, where we're never gonna be a company that just switches off clinical kind of oversight. Like there are companies out there that categorically draw a line in the sand and say we are never going to be using clinicians, like we are just an AI business that does healthcare, for example. We're not in we're we're not gonna do that. We we always feel that the clinician in the loop is key. And I think that you know that enables us to continually refine, validate the models that we may be using. Um, and and it's just a constant process of learning and updating. You know, I think there there are there has been some changes in terms of understanding literature. There's a big thing about bias in healthcare as well, where you know literature historically is very biased towards certain demographics or certain kind of users, and and so we're constantly testing our assumptions about how we mitigate for things like bias in data. Um, and yeah, it's just it's just a constantly evolving process that that never really stops for us, in all honesty.

Dr Andrew Greenland: 19:26

Thank you. Um, so what are the um what are you most proud of at EQL right now? What's working really, really well? What do you go home at night and think, yes, um, I'm really happy with the way this is working out for you?

Peter Grinbergs: 19:36

Yeah, so a couple of things, I think. I mean, you know, so certainly historically some wins have been there. Was this assumption when we first started that you know we would have a certain user group where we would be very particular, you know, in a certain age range or something. And that's typical for technology. They say our focus group is, you know, yeah, profession young professionals or whatever it is. We we never kind of subscribed to that necessarily. We were like, we would genuinely want to be a solution that covers all angles. And so one of our initial first kind of big wins was that we were able to demonstrate that. Like we don't see any digital divide in terms of you know, uh things like socioeconomic or or literal digital literacy or age range. Like that's something that we're very proud of. Um, I think uh in terms of other wins, you know, we our kind of our big our main value proposition is that we want to be able to enable people who can safely self-manage to be able to self-manage quickly. When we started, you know, we were seeing circa 20-25% of people falling into that category. Some of our latest data suggests that up to 75% fall into that range now, and that's not people we're forcing into self-management, that's people that are safe and opting into self-management. So, certainly one of our wins has just been the huge amount of people that we seem to be unlocking in terms of being able to enable them to safely self-manage without necessarily needing to go into the health system. So that's certainly been a big win. And then I think maybe just in terms of overall volume, I mean, we cover a huge population now. We're we're in the predominantly in the UK, but also we're alive in Australia, in the Australian market. We're doing something like 25,000 assessments a month through our platform, which is you know significant. And so certainly that's been a big milestone and something that we're we're obviously really proud of uh to have been able to have got to that sort of point. So, yeah, I think lots of wins for us, lots of things we need to still work on, but but certainly some good, some good kind of uh yeah, some good medals along the way.

Dr Andrew Greenland: 21:34

Really impressive, super impressed. Um, by contrast, what are the kind of the challenges or bottlenecks that are most impactful in the business today? I mean, is there anything around regulation or resourcing integrations, procurement? What are those things that are bothering you?

Peter Grinbergs: 21:49

Yeah, I think you've just mentioned them all, right? I mean, um, you know, regulation is not a bottleneck, but it's certainly something that you have to be across and you have to be many, many, many steps ahead. Um, and we actually take the view that we like to engage, you know, in the with the regulator in terms of not only domestically but internationally. I mean, we we set up a focus group with the WHO um that was looking at uh as part of the AI for health focus group that was specifically looking at MSK for the you know, mainly for this reason. Like, how can we how can we safely use AI in our sector? Because it's something that's going to happen. So, so I think that that you know, keeping abreast of the regulations is very, very key. Um, user expectations, as I say, they they double continuously. So you can have a product that's in the market, you know, a year or two years ago, like the expectations of users nowadays, particularly when it comes to things like chat chatbot technology, because the advent of chat GPT and the others, just the expectations of users just so much higher now, which is a good thing and it drives us forward. So, so meeting expectations for users. Um, but then you mentioned others, you know, funding, uh well, not funding, but maybe resource, internal resource is always constantly under pressure because we're we're constantly building and developing new ideas and new technologies, and and you know, each one of those new projects requires more people, and so we have to very be very effective and efficient with our time resource. Um and and funding, funding is difficult, you know, especially in the NHS, funding is difficult, especially at the moment. You know, there's a lot of questions, rightly, being asked about you know the you the spending of money and being able to evidence that um and being able to create you know viable uh business cases that are complementary to our NHS customers is is a challenge. It's not like in other sectors in other parts of the world where maybe you know there's much more significant funding at hand. In the UK, funding is very tight in the pop in the in the private sector in the public sector. So so we have to work hard to prove our value, you know, uh, and that's a constant thing because you know, inevitably people want things to get cheaper, more effective, more efficient. Um, and so we have to deliver on that in order to be able to not only keep our lights on, but also be able to keep you know the lights on generally with with with the NHS and and our NHS customers. So, yeah, it's constant things that we're we're we're trying to manage there, which at the end of the day is just is business, right? And it and it's what keeps us honest also in terms of our of our development. So uh yeah, it's all all part of the fun and games, I suppose.

Dr Andrew Greenland: 24:30

And on that note, if you had a magic wand and you could fix one thing in the business tomorrow, what would that be?

Peter Grinbergs: 24:36

Yeah, I mean, I'm a stipler for efficiency. So, I mean, I think partly the reason that I sort of ended up going, you know, we ended up going down this route was because I was just frustrated with the inefficiency of like the amount of conversations people had to have and the amount of times they had to say the same thing and whatever. And and so I always still look at our operation and think, not just our operation, our technology, everything, where where can we squeeze out more efficiency in the things that we're doing? So I think that's that's always a constant thing, is like, can we do things quicker, more in a more effective, whilst maintaining the safety and all of that sort of stuff? I think, I think yes, we can. And and really the the the only other one is is as I said, I would love to be able to um really deploy and realize the full potential of our preventative kind of medicine. Um and and so that's a big motivation for me currently is solving that problem.

Dr Andrew Greenland: 25:34

And if you were starting EQL again tomorrow, would you do anything differently? Obviously, bearing in mind the journey that you've had so far.

Peter Grinbergs: 25:41

Yeah, it's a great question, and it's obviously one that comes up, you know, sometimes in these discussions. I think I'm a firm believer that everything just is, you know, I don't get too hung up on mistakes that were made. Like we, you know, we we make mistakes, like that there are things that are oversights. Um, you know, once I aside from the obvious making sure everything is very safe and and all of that, like there are things that that you do where you you think, well that you know, we pushed that out too quick, or you know, we didn't quite understand that market. Or um, you know, I and I think that you learn from that in all honesty. Like, I don't, I think, you know, I would I change anything. I don't think I would change anything because I'm a firm believer that you know when you've made a mistake, it's it's normal, it's natural. I'm wary of people that that say we haven't made any mistakes, to be honest, because I just think, well, then you haven't you either haven't tried hard enough or you you know you you're you've been ignorant to mistakes that you may have made. So I don't think there's anything I would change. I think you know, when people ask me for advice on on particularly early stage business, I think I think you have to understand like number one, you have to be a user of your product, you have to really understand the product from a user's perspective. That's rule number one. But once you've done that, you absolutely have to be conscious of the fact that you are the now the most biased user of your product, and you then have to challenge the assumptions that you've made about how it works and what it does and what value it adds. So it's less of a lesson, it's less about a caution retail, more of a kind of my advice generally is always just make sure you do that. Like make sure you have a product that you think solves a genuine problem. Sounds obvious, but not everyone does. Like some people start businesses purely to make money. Um, and I think that's an oversight, in all honesty. I think it's like, yes, it needs to make money, but you have to see a full, you have to know the problem really. And then I think very quickly you have to check yourself and the assumptions that you've made. And the quicker you can do that, the quicker your product is going to be, you know, out in the market, doing good things, solving real problems.

Dr Andrew Greenland: 27:49

Thank you. Um, if you had a sudden influx of new partners or new service users tomorrow, would anything break in your platform or your service?

Peter Grinbergs: 27:59

Um, so in terms of you know, things like capacity and all that sort of stuff, like technology is obviously very good at being able to scale quickly. And and so from that side, no. Um, we do we do have an element of um human capital requirements for growth, as any business would. But in all honesty, we we have a very efficient engine internally, and we have a very good model in terms of things like staff recruit, yeah, retention and recruitment, actually, if we need need to bring more people on. So, no is the answer. But that's that said, it's like, you know, of course, there is the risk that we that there's the risk of any business in terms of overtrading, and you have to be cognizant and cautious of, you know, it sounds like a champagne problem sometimes to have loads and loads and loads and loads and loads of work coming in, but you do have to obviously tread carefully. You can overtrade if you're not careful, and it's just about doing things in an efficient, safe way. Um, and it's about understanding all of the failure points way ahead of time so that you can predict, you know, never be surprised basically about things that could happen. Um, so yeah, growth absolutely, we are supercharged and primed for growth. We've been doubling, you know, year on year for the last seven years anyway, uh, in terms of 100% year-on-year growth. So I think we're doing a good job of that growth. Um, I think we are conscious of the um things that need to be improved in order to continue that at that sort of rate. Um, and I think so long as you have a handle on those things, like you, you, you're you're in a good place, as long as you understand the limitations, you don't get complacent, um, you have good comms internally, externally with your investment and all of these sorts of things. Like you can manage that um as long as you understand it, as long as you're being sensible about the limitations, and as I say, you're not you're not being surprised by things. That suddenly pop up out of the blue.

Dr Andrew Greenland: 30:02

Thank you. So obviously EQL is a business. Are there any particular metrics that you are particularly interested in in the day-to-day operations to kind of keep an eye on how things are going and where things are going?

Peter Grinbergs: 30:13

Yeah, I think obviously, you know, the obvious ones around performance of the tools from a safety perspective, from an accuracy perspective, and also from a value perspective. And then aside from that, obviously, you know, there are commercial things, you know, it's like managing your runway, it's like making sure there's enough in your pipeline, you know, understanding the conversion rates of potential new customers so that you can manage all of these things, like the growth and the forecasting and the resource and the tooling that you're developing. Um so you there's no one single thing that you have to be across. I think you have to be across all of these different things in order to have a business which you can safely say is sustainable and and and has long-term kind of uh long-term is long-term future proof. Um so I I think I think those are the main things. I'm always six months, 12 months ahead in terms of things that could go wrong, things that we are probably know are coming in terms of improvements that need to be made, or technology uh that might be available, or expectations. So I think so long as you're constant not getting complacent and you're constantly looking ahead, then you can't go far wrong. Um, that said, there are clear commercial things that you need to make sure you're fulfilling, right? Like you need to be sustainable, or you need to at least have sustainable growth, um, or you need to have a good runway in order to fund you know the growth that you're that you're seeing. So um, so yeah, those those are the I would say those are the kind of things that that at least keep me up at night.

Dr Andrew Greenland: 31:53

Thank you. And where do you think um well, where is EQL going in the next six to 12 months, whether it be around product partnerships, geography, or anything else?

Peter Grinbergs: 32:01

Yeah, well, I'd say we've got uh you know pretty uh aggressive kind of growth expectations in in Australia. That's a big market for us, uh, we think. Um we constantly play with this idea of going into the US market. Um, and I yeah I think every every day we get slightly closer to that being a reality. It's just a cautionary tale there because there's a many, many, many health tech businesses that go to the US and fall apart. So we have to be cognizant of that. I I you know we've got some super interesting stuff coming up technology-wise, in the next 12 months. Um, so I'm very excited about the next phase of our product development. Um, we've got some really interesting things coming out on our triage, and you know, we're developing you know these kind of digital twin ideas, which we think is going to be really cool and a step forward in that sort of precision medicine approach, specifically as it relates to our preventative stuff. Um, so so I'm super excited about that. Um, yeah, you know, I'd love, I think we're on we're on course to do another 100% year in terms of growth. Um and yeah, but look, it gets big. It it it you know, there's there's certainly an inflection point. Like I took a business from you know two employees to 72 employees, and I understand in a previous life, I understand the inflection point around that 30-40 people. It's massive to double your business at that size. Like it may only be double, it's double the amount of revenue, maybe, but the the the people requirements, the management setup, the layers of of HR support is significant going from that, you know, from one area to sort of doubling the the person count. And so um, you know, I'm I'm I'm also cognizant of of what needs to happen there, and and I know that that's gonna be a big uh you know, that's a that's a big undertaking for us. And that's the trajectory that we're on. So um, yeah, lots of things to still be thinking about, um, but super excited about the technology and where we're going with it.

Dr Andrew Greenland: 34:02

Amazing. I've got to ask you, do you miss being able to rush out onto the pitch with a wet sponge? Uh were you harbouring this sort of secret knowledge of tech and business all these years while being clinical? Because I'm fascinated as how you've made this kind of transition and where you've ended up today. Um, it's fascinating.

Peter Grinbergs: 34:18

Yeah, I I don't miss it, is the honest trick. I loved it at the time, but it's it's I think I've I've sort of since you know, I've I've moved on and I'm comfortable where I am now doing what I'm doing. Um it's interesting. I kind of I think a lot of it did harbour back to those days in in that in that elite sport environment because you know, we used to sign players and we'd have like we'd have a screening system that you know would basically use data. Like we'd we'd get people jumping up and down, running up and down, and we'd be like, right, based on the outcomes here, like we shouldn't sign you, or we should sign you, you know. And it's like again, I just became really obsessed with that idea that it's just comes down to data, and and so a lot of it I think stems from that, from that, from those days. Um, but no, I don't I don't miss it. I love what I do now because it's super interesting. Like we're at the you know, we really are at the kind of sharp edge of innovation and kind of clinical, you know, practice, and it's that's really interesting to me. Um, and and yeah, I think where did it come from? Yeah, it certainly came from just this kind of uh inquisitive mind of you know, how do we solve the puzzle here that is healthcare, and it's a big puzzle to solve. And you know, I think once you start to see that there's a path through, and you start to you know be able to kind of demonstrate some value with what you're doing, like that's for me, that's massively motivating, and it just keeps me wanting to do more and more, you know.

Dr Andrew Greenland: 35:40

Amazing. Peter, on that note, thank you so much for the conversation. It's been really, really fascinating, really interesting hearing about under the bonnet at EQL, the work you're doing, and how you are scaling MS Keek MSK care while keeping quality at the centre. Quite brilliant. Thank you so much for your time.

Peter Grinbergs: 35:55

Thank you, Angie.