Dr Andrew Greenland: 0:00

Welcome back to Voices in Health and Wellness. This is where we bring together practitioners, healers, and health leaders who are rethinking how care is delivered and received. Today I'm honoured to be joined by Dr. Ana Irazabel DeSanchez, a licensed clinical social worker, doctor of social work, certified perinatal mental health professional. Dr. Ana is also the founder of YAI Wellness, where she's pioneering culturally grounded healing practices that integrate with both with traditional wisdom and clinical knowledge. Her work sits at the powerful intersection of mental health, perinatal care, and decolonial healing. Got it right that time. Ana, welcome to the show. Thank you so much for joining us.

Dr Ana Irazabal De Sanchez: 0:37

Thank you so much for having me, Dr. Andrew. It's a pleasure to be here.

Dr Andrew Greenland: 0:40

So maybe we could start a little bit with your story. What drew you into mental health and the healing work that you do?

Dr Ana Irazabal De Sanchez: 0:46

Absolutely. It's what drew me into this space really just was uh my upbringing and my immigration story. I was born and raised in Caracas, Venezuela. Um, and then at a young age moved to the United States and very quickly was exposed to uh having to um cultivate and navigate a dual cultural context and having to hold very distinct values, one from like my home country and uh that my parents were still you know very much wanting to share with me within our household, and that didn't necessarily look the same all the time with um what I was experiencing at school and in the states. Um so to put a name to it, uh Venezuela is very much a collectivistic society with very collectivistic value system. Um, the states is is known to be more of an individualistic society with uh individualistic uh value system. So naturally the clash that comes with that. And being uh a young, having a young mind and a young teenager having to navigate that duality was uh complex and it really just drew my interest in just understanding human behavior more and the complexities within human behavior. And so I've always been interested in psychology and and that just my my immigration story and in my upbringing really just um drove that interest forward.

Dr Andrew Greenland: 2:21

Thank you. I always find it inspiring to hear about how people found their path. And it's thank you very much for giving us that background. Perhaps you could tell us a little bit about your work at YAI Wellness and how it came to be and what makes it unique.

Dr Ana Irazabal De Sanchez: 2:35

Yeah, I um I focus on working with individuals that are within the family expansion period of their life. And what that means is starting from just thinking about expanding family um to um working towards conception um and everything that comes with that. So loss, um fertility challenges, unexplained fertility, pregnancy, postpartum, and beyond. Um I really got into that work because again, just my own story of becoming a parent and understanding just the depth of that transformation and that season in someone's life, and also the gaps in care um and support that that new parents or expecting parents um receive during that period of transition. Um and so I am very privileged to be able to support individuals in such a transformational period of their life. And that brings naturally brings a lot of strong, strong emotions. And I think that I do believe that my approach um is unique in the ways that uh I create space to be able to um bring in uh unique aspects of the individual's identity and cultural background and um belief systems in ways that are not necessarily traditionally seen in psychotherapeutic practices, at least here in the States. And so uh that's the decolonial lens uh that I bring in and the importance of being able to really work not only in the mind level, so like cognition and what's happening in the mind, or even just like biology, which is very important, but also bring in aspects of spirituality um and health uh practices that are maybe outside of uh traditional medicine that's important for the individual's life. So I hope that that answers your question.

Dr Andrew Greenland: 4:48

It does. Thank you. It sounds like a very unique approach. Is anybody doing this work apart from yourself?

Dr Ana Irazabal De Sanchez: 4:53

Uh thankfully, yes. Yes, I am not the only one doing this, and it's it's been really, really wonderful being able to connect with other practitioners that that recognize the importance of approaching uh mental wellness through a holistic lens and being able to bring all aspects of a human and the ways that I categorize it is really just working with mind, body, heart, and spirit of an individual and not isolating any one component of that, right? It's really just the integration of all those four very important pieces. Um and we could use more. So, yes, there's other people doing this work, and and um I'm excited just to be able to build that community and spread the word of the benefit of that, and hopefully we can get more people on board.

Dr Andrew Greenland: 5:38

Amazing. I'm all for holistic practices. I'm very much engrossed in functional medicine, and that's as holistic as I can make it. But it's it's good to hear that other people are doing taking holistic approaches in their various niches. So, what does a typical day look like for you across clinical practice, teaching, and leading YAI wellness? And I accept that every day is going to be different, but I'm just trying to get some sense of how you spend your time.

Dr Ana Irazabal De Sanchez: 6:02

Yeah, I think um a big part of my identity that I would that informs the way that my day is structured is the morning routine with my two girls. I have two girls um ages three and four, um, and that really just like sets the tone for the rest of my day. I'm in charge of the morning routine, getting them ready for daycare, taking them off um to their school, and then returning and being able to uh hold clinical sessions. I I do one-on-one uh sessions, I also hold groups, um, and then the evenings are usually filled with my teaching responsibilities, and um, I love teaching. Um and then the afternoon is back again to that mommy duties um with my two girls. And so that's that would be just like the average general flow of my day-to-day.

Dr Andrew Greenland: 6:56

Thank you. So you're working very closely with perinatal clients and younger adults, and what are you noticing in terms of how they're approaching their care differently from perhaps previous generations?

Dr Ana Irazabal De Sanchez: 7:06

Yeah, I think something that I am noticing a lot recently is just the intensity of the pressure that that young adults, uh individuals trying to expand their family, or even just like um early parenting individuals have. Um, and just the heightened level of pressure, stress, um, anxiety. Um, you know, we're also seeing the uh the numbers of individuals experiencing uh postpartum depression or other mental health disorders rise. And I say individuals because postpartum uh depression, anxiety, and other mental health disorders is not only for women or birthing parents. Um there is more conversation around just the impact of this just significant transition in someone's life for the non-birthing parents and fathers, um, and how and how it's not talked about enough yet. However, we do see also anxiety rise in this season and the and the need to be able to incorporate support systems, uh, therapy included. Um, I am hopeful that I do see more men uh seek support now. So that's really wonderful. And again, there's still a lot more work to be done in that area to um destigmatize right mental health services, for example, for men or um work against just the historical notion that like men need to have it together, right, in the season and they need to pull down the forward and they cannot uh you know experience anxiety um in such a transformational period in anyone's life. Um so I'm seeing I'm seeing a shift to the awareness of working not only with with mom or the birthing parent, but really seeing it uh from a family lens perspective and really incorporating the non-birthing parent more into the work and and and also just support for them. Um and the pressures that the added pressures that I think comes from the season that we're living, the reality that we're living right now of um too much information, uh social media outlets, um Reddit, you know, Facebook, um all of these different platforms that depict the perfect um parent. Or um just to also put names to these in like the bounce back culture that we live in, right? This false idea of like you give birth and then the next day you are back wearing the jeans before you got pregnant and you're you know back at work killing it and being amazing, and your house is spotless, which is just it's just it's a myth. Um, but being able parents have access to you know influencers now or all of these, you know, accounts that like it's much easier to fall into that comparative stage of like, why don't I have it together when they have it together, um without knowing that it's a myth to have it together right away.

Dr Andrew Greenland: 10:19

And and how are they responding to your um use of culturally rooted or decolonial approaches in therapy? You mentioned that I mentioned that in the introduction. I'm just trying to get some understanding of how would they respond to it.

Dr Ana Irazabal De Sanchez: 10:30

Um I get a very, very positive response. Um part of the decolonial work is really debunking these myths. Um so really taking the work, looking at things from a macro perspective, right? Um, putting a name to the systems that are at play that impact then um that individuals or that family system's well-being in life, right? So, for example, naming the bounce back culture that we um are living in, um, and and therefore really removing the the blame on the individual of like you don't have it together to hey, I recognize the expectation, these are the messages that you're receiving from society. It does have a name, the bound the toxic bounce back culture that we're living in. And um it the reality is that it takes time. Most people, if not, and ever anyone that I've come across um recognize that there is a healing period after giving birth, for example, for the birthing parent. Um, and that um your you know organs don't go back to place right away after giving birth, that that actually requires time. Um, and therefore your body is gonna um evolve and shift, and that is okay. And can we name that as beautiful as well, right? Instead of uh putting the pressure of losing weight, for example, right away. Um, so they they tend to uh the feedback that I get is is very positive in really being able to alleviate that those um sensations and feelings of guilt and shame and blame and self-blame and understanding that where that pressure is coming from and being able to put a name to that, right? Like naming the at a macro level, like systems that are impacting just uh the season of transition for them.

Dr Andrew Greenland: 12:27

Thank you. So we talked about this um shift in expectations in younger folks, or do you think is there a broader transformation in the field in general?

Dr Ana Irazabal De Sanchez: 12:37

What do you mean by that, Dr. Andrew?

Dr Andrew Greenland: 12:39

Um so you're talking about you do you you work more with younger patients, and I just wondered whether the expectations that you're seeing with those younger people is perhaps a little bit more widespread, and we're seeing these kind of things in the wider age range of people approaching for therapy.

Dr Ana Irazabal De Sanchez: 12:57

Yeah, I do think that there's been that there is a generational shift. I do believe that younger generations are um more open to therapy, for example. Um, therapy has been less stigmatized for them, um, and and therefore willing to even just like seek help, access help, um, than maybe their parents did. Um so I I I do think that that there is there's that component at play here.

Dr Andrew Greenland: 13:33

Thank you. I'm digging into the weeds a bit. So we can we've mentioned decolonial therapy a few times. Um trying to dig into the weeds for those people that might not know very much about it. I mean, how do how do you define it? I mean, I've given us a couple of examples, but how do you define what it actually is?

Dr Ana Irazabal De Sanchez: 13:48

That's a great question. Um the way that I would define a decolonial therapeutic approach would be in being able to incorporate uh, well, first the understanding of history um in the work, right? Um the importance of understanding history and incorporating history into the work that you're doing. And what I mean by that is um, for example, if I'm working with uh an immigrant or a first generation uh individual in the United States, uh, being able to understand um their immigration story, um, maybe the history of the country of origin for them and and the components that you know factored into having to migrate or choosing to migrate. Um, so I think history is is very, very important. Um, understanding the history of mental, the progression of mental health too. Um so being able to recognize that um traditional mental health practices is has really been rooted in supporting men, for example. We know more about men's health than women's health. Um, so being able to be very um critical in understanding the tools that you bring into the space with an individual. Um the place where those tools were meant to work and function and be designed for, and you know, is it is it a good fit for that individual or not? So I think um decolonial practices is really just uh being able to take a wider look, a bigger picture. So again, looking at the macro systems that are at play that have influenced um, you know, therapeutic practice, evidence-based practices, and thinking critically of the individual that's sitting in front of you and their history, and is it a good fit or not? Or does these practices need to be modified some bit, right? Or what are the factors that we need to consider? For example, postpartum individual, you know, talking about uh the bounce back culture that exists, right? The pressure of having it all together right away that exists. And so um, if there's one sentence that I would use to define decolonial practices is really being very, very um aware of history and how history plays a role here, and intentional in what you bring into the healing space and the therapy space with individuals based on their story and their history.

Dr Andrew Greenland: 16:45

Thank you. Um, I guess there's a balance to be had. So sort of the clinical standards you're trying to maintain, there's medical science, you're bringing in the ancestral knowledge. How do you balance these things out in the context of the therapy work?

Dr Ana Irazabal De Sanchez: 16:58

That's a great question. I think it it's a I see it, I see it more of the art of being able to weave in all of these different components in more of an organic way through conversation. Um, I think a lot of my work is really centered around the decolonial value of radical love, right? And what that means to me and the way I understand it is really just being intentional in establishing a very authentic relationship with the person that you're working with. Um and through that relationship, then it facilitates the ability to be able to wean weaven these different aspects more organically into the work through conversation and leaning in with curiosity. A lot of questions. Um, a lot of questions and understanding that I'm not the expert of these things for the individual. So creating the space too for the individual to be able to educate me. Um and and I often start the work by telling the people that I work with that they are the experts of their story and they're the experts of their body, right? That I may have more knowledge around maybe emotion regulation and these kind of things, but I want, I need them in order for it to work, I need them to sit at the table with me, owning their levels of expertise and working with me in collaboration to be able to then facilitate and weaving all these different aspects of work for that.

Dr Andrew Greenland: 18:34

Thank you. And with that, have you encountered any resistance, whether that be from your clients or colleagues or the system in general, when trying to introduce this more holistic approach with you know the ancestral knowledge?

Dr Ana Irazabal De Sanchez: 18:46

Yeah. Um resistance in different ways. Um yeah, in different ways. I I think that that's that's part of my story too. I worked for many, many years part of a large hospital system um that I, you know, really gave me amazing training and I'm so grateful for. Um, and it got to a point where I recognized that I needed to branch out on my own and establish then uh yeah, right, psychotherapy uh services uh because the ways that I was growing in um awareness and and wanting to be able to weave in these different aspects, I wasn't, I didn't have the space to do that in the systems that I was operating under before. And so that really motivated me to take the next step and start something on my own. Um, I don't know if I would call it resistance. I think it's just uh the systems are not designed um to incorporate these kinds of things, right? And so naturally there's gonna, it's gonna require um a lot of education, I feel, um, and the the time for these systems and to institutional and institutions to be able to evolve, right? So I hope that that answers your question.

Dr Andrew Greenland: 20:11

It does, thank you, thank you. Um so what's working really well in your practice or your framework right now, um whether it's um sort of from a clinical side, um therapeutic side, business side, what are you most proud of? What's what's going really well for you?

Dr Ana Irazabal De Sanchez: 20:26

I think what I'm most proud of and is going very well is um being intentional um in weaving in a more holistic approach uh to therapy. Um the individuals that come to me and seek um support really communicate that, like, hey, like we, you know, uh liked that you named that you're a decolonial worker because these are aspects that are very important to me, and this is what I'm looking for when it comes to care. Um I'm seeing now with this like shift with AI, right? And how so many people are using AI for therapy now. Um individuals are, I find that individuals are are are seeking a more authentic connection and a space to be to fully express themselves in a way that AI can't necessarily offer, right? Um and and going beyond. So at one point, people are very, very much interested in just like tell me how to fix a problem, right? Like, give me the steps, tell me what to do to get this to change, right? And so um what this could look like in the therapeutic space of like, okay, well, engage in this form of breathing for you know, practice mindfulness in this way, um, three times a week, right? Uh do more movement 20 times a day, 20 minutes a day, these kind of things. But I find that in this season, people are genuinely interested because they could get that also from AI, right? People are generally interested in a very authentic um relationship, therapeutic relationship that where they could be themselves. So I think that being able to provide that um for individuals is something that I'm very proud of in the in the work that I do.

Dr Andrew Greenland: 22:20

And on the flip side, what's um the most frustrating, whether that's I don't know, system level barrier or something in the business itself um that kind of bothers you or that you're constantly having to address or overcome?

Dr Ana Irazabal De Sanchez: 22:34

Well, I think just the hurdles um continue to be um doing this decolonial work while still abiding by um institutional standards, for example, like documentation. Um, right, I do take on insurance, um, and insurance requires you to do documentation a certain way. So um being able to meet the standards of documentation, but in a way that empowers the client, um, that is that that's a skill in itself, um, and and takes a lot of time uh to do and and cultivate. And so I think that that that continues to be um and why so many practitioners decide not to work with insurance, right? Because it's very hard to do this kind of work and be intentional and bring in all of these different elements and still meet the standards um in a way that supports the individual. Um so I think that that's my biggest frustration right now. But again, it's a dance. Um I'm happy to continue to do that dance as long as as I'm able to in order to provide the support for people that need it most.

Dr Andrew Greenland: 23:52

Thank you. So it's kind of like an ongoing challenge of having to negotiate and work with insurers. But what's the perhaps one of the biggest challenges you've had to overcome so far in your work that you've you've solved? I'm just curious to know what you how what the problem was and how you solved it.

Dr Ana Irazabal De Sanchez: 24:07

How I solved it. Um I'm laughing because I I think what comes up to my mind for me is um just my personality. I'm I'm more I consider myself more of an introvert, um, someone behind the scenes. And in order to be able to put my business out there and do the marketing, I've had to expose, like be present more, right? Like be involved in in social media, be involved um more in ways that are not that are outside of my preference. Um and the way that I've been able to overcome that is just like focus on just doing it, right? I I think about just like the big picture, like I may not enjoy having to um continue to maintain social media presence, for example. Um and I know that that is a necessary, you know, uh thing that I need to do in order to reach the individuals and work with the individuals and have the opportunities that I want. So I stay focused on the big picture in those moments that are more uncomfortable for me.

Dr Andrew Greenland: 25:20

Thank you. And if you had a magic wand, then you could fix one thing tomorrow in the business. What would that be?

Dr Ana Irazabal De Sanchez: 25:26

Ooh. Oh one thing. I think it's oh, okay, that's a very good question. If I could fix one thing, are you talking about my personal business or the mental health?

Dr Andrew Greenland: 25:40

Um, anything really. The thing that bothers you the most that you would love to have that magic wand to solve, whatever that thing might be.

Dr Ana Irazabal De Sanchez: 25:49

Oh, I think what comes to mind right now for me would be uh being able to um give society the tools that are needed to engage in more authentic conversations that require feeling more, right? Because I found that our society we don't do a good job at um feeling or wanting to feel. We tend to avoid challenging conversations that are important because they may be uncomfortable. Um, and so I would love just to be able to shift that narrative of one that's like we want, we don't want to feel these uncomfortable things. And so we're not gonna face these challenging conversations to one of like, hey, these uncomfortable feelings are part of the full breadth of human emotion, they're okay. Let's lean in more and let's you know have more genuine authentic conversations, even if we have these strong feelings around them.

Dr Andrew Greenland: 26:52

I love that within a therapeutic context, or are you referring more generally to society having these conversations?

Dr Ana Irazabal De Sanchez: 26:59

Yeah, yeah. Well, in the in the therapy of field, because that's a lot of the work that I do, is building comfort with uncomfortable feelings. Um, but yes, uh if if I had the magic wand, I would do it for well at a global level, honestly.

Dr Andrew Greenland: 27:14

Amazing. And if you had a sudden influx of 20 new clients next week, um what would happen? Would anything break, or would you be able to um absorb that level of interest?

Dr Ana Irazabal De Sanchez: 27:25

No, I don't think anything would break. I would I would seize the that opportunity um and problem solve and do do what's needed to be able to sustain that, right? Um I I'm very passionate uh with the work that I do and and if people need support, I I'll figure out a way to be able to provide that support, even if if that means like working collectively, right? Um bring in additional resources or even help them support themselves in some way until you know we're able to meet everyone's needs in the ways that they want. So I would I would welcome that.

Dr Andrew Greenland: 28:06

And you've been in the space for a while now, but if you were building YAI wellness again from scratch, would you do anything differently?

Dr Ana Irazabal De Sanchez: 28:17

Um I probably would have started it sooner. I think that would be the the difference that I would pick. If I would do anything differently, I probably would have jumped into it sooner.

Dr Andrew Greenland: 28:30

I mean, hindsight's a wonderful thing. I get it. Um so what's next for you? What's what's what are you hoping to do over the next six to twelve months in the business? Is any plans afoot?

Dr Ana Irazabal De Sanchez: 28:42

Yeah, I um currently working on a book right now um to be able to reach more individuals. Um the book is geared towards being able to support individuals in the perinatal period of their life and introduce uh this lens, this perspective, this anti-colonial perspective on how how do you navigate this season of massive transformation in a way that that allows you to thrive, right? Um, because it is hard. And oftentimes people get stuck in this narrative that like once you have kids, your life is over. Um, and people are choosing not to have kids now because it's so hard, right? We're seeing the stats of of people, you know, choosing not to have kids skyrocket. Um so I think that's an indicator of yes, this this season is hard and it's in need of a lot of support, and it is possible to be able to thrive in it. Um, but it requires support and intentionality and awareness of these systems that are at play, be able to name them so you don't place the blame on yourself when you encounter challenges. So that that that's kind of like where I'm focused. Um and the Work is going to be for the next like six to twelve months, being able to complete that again.

Dr Andrew Greenland: 30:05

Wonderful. Do let us know when you have a title and we'll put it on the bio page for your um podcast episode so people can and on that note, Ana, I'd like to thank you so much for your time this afternoon talking to us about your work and giving us some deeper insights into this particular strategy of approach that you have. It's been really interesting and informative. Um, really grateful. So thank you so much.

Dr Ana Irazabal De Sanchez: 30:27

Yeah, thank you so much for having me. It's wonderful to have this conversation with you. Thank you.