Dr Andrew Greenland: 0:00

Hello everyone and welcome back to another episode of Voices in Health and Wellness, the show where we sit down with trailblazers, practitioners, and leaders who are reimagining what it means to care for others and themselves in today's evolving wellness landscape. Today's guest is someone I'm really excited to speak with, Tessa Groshoff. Tessa is an LMHC, an EMDRIA approved trainer or consultant, and a specialist in EMDR intensive therapy and expressive arts therapies. She's the founder of Coast to Coast EMDR, where she trains and supports clinicians across the US in deepening their trauma-informed practices with cutting-edge modalities. She's also a registered expressive arts therapist and brings a rare integration of structure and creativity into the healing space. So with that, Tessa, welcome to the show and thank you so much for joining us today.

Tessa Groshoff: 0:47

Oh, thank you, Andrew. I'm so excited to just share and be part of this gathering of so many of us people who really want to support all people. So thank you.

Dr Andrew Greenland: 0:59

Well, thank you. You're very welcome. So maybe we can start at the top. Could you share a little bit about your role and how Coast to Coast EMDR came to be?

Tessa Groshoff: 1:08

You bet, you bet. Well, and thank you for that introduction, right? I'm always, you know, it's interesting when we're talking about what we do, and there's that professional line. All these, I always like to say those expensive letters after our name, right? But I really like to teach myself. I give permission, teach my interns, teach my classes to be able to say, I want you to take those and be honored by those letters. But who are you? Where did this begin? And I think that's part of the healing journey that I like to kind of bring in, not only as a clinician, but as a teacher and a trainer. So for me, I think I began this healing uh modality. It's from my spirit. It began all the way in the womb, um, where my family has been very, very creative, generational, and who they are in the present. And so I think I probably learned how to communicate through expressive art before I actually learned what the alphabet told me I needed to know. And so I've really incorporated a lot of that into the work that I do very holistically and then in the modality. So um a lot of my trainings came on the ground, whether that was riding train cars in Mexico, between train cars in Mexico, all the way to attending, um, where I would do some expressive arts with some of the young women that were on this train. I do remember that was one of my introductions to how can we use art, how can we use play therapy to really help regulate people? And there were some kids on the plane or on the train, moms that were not feeling okay. And I started just acting out um different scenarios, and the kids were able to decompress the moms. So it was one of my introductions all the way to um I actually got to attend the Architecture Association in Bedford Square in London, where I would absolutely where my first degree is in building and architecture. Um, but my goal was to design uh accessibility for other people. Um, and that's really been the healing pattern that I keep bringing in, keep bringing in. And then one day I just said, you know what? I need to go into the actual therapy realm. And so went into the actual therapy realm, loved every part of it, but I needed to bring that expressive arts piece in, that holistic piece in. So I did that. Um, and then one day in 2017, I think it was, I get a call and somebody says, Hey, you need to take an EMDR training. And I'm like, what is EMDR? That's is that's that weird bilateral eye movement. What is that about? I don't need that. I have a wonderful, I had my own clinic, I had interns, everything. I was doing expressive arts, but I said, Well, I'll take the class. Halfway through the class, I said, What is this? What is this? And it was a piece that was missing. EMGR is really that evidence-based psychotherapy that works so beautifully with our PTSD clientele. And it's such a way to gain an access into that trauma brain that I love to pair with that expressive arts. So what I've done from that point on is really integrated that part of EMDR with expressive arts. And now I'm working, I'm training EMDR, I'm working all over the world, getting to work with clientele from um pretty much right now. What I'm doing is it's 14-day up to one day or 14 days of intensive um therapy with um people that come in who will see me for six to eight hours, and we just do straight EMDR training or EMDR work intensives, but I can incorporate some of that expressive arts. So a long story to really talk about being able to use EMDR, but also that holistic view of bringing yourself into the session as a therapist too is important.

Dr Andrew Greenland: 5:26

Lovely. I love origin stories. I love to hear how people got to where they are, and specifically um coast to coast. So just tell us a little about the setup at coast to coast. Is it clinic like clinical training, both? What's your kind of role in it all?

Tessa Groshoff: 5:39

So coast to coast, oh, is fantastic. So there are four of us um who are part of Coast to Coast. So Roxanne, Marion, and Holly. And those are women that are incredible. Roxanne Groble, it's kind of the guru she has been doing. She was actually had some training with um Francine Shapiro, who uh began EMDR. And so we met, um, we worked all together in Denver. So what we did was um how the intensive, and that's how coast to coast began was we all worked together in Denver. We would fly, they live in Florida, I live in Washington State. We all flew in, met in Denver with an organization called 11th Hour, who was contracted with first responders. So we all met, we were doing this intensive work, we really began to see how incredible and supportive doing the EMDR work in that intensive model was. So we decided that we needed to form coast to coast together, bringing in all of our different types of um modality, yeah, modalities, because EMGR can also you can incorporate other modalities there. And so just around the just around the dining room table, we said we've got to do this. And one of the things we do see is the integrity and authenticity of EMDR is so important to have. And there wasn't as many trainings at that time, so we decided that we wanted to move a lot more into training others into utilizing this, but also opening up our center to doing intensives with lots of different populations. And one of our key parts that we do is we do a lot of intensives with other therapists. So it's really, really hard as a therapist. We need to work on our own stuff, and the clientele we we have, we hold a lot of space, but sometimes, you know, in our locations, it's hard to find other therapists that we might feel safe, or we're like, boy, if I tell them about this, they're gonna know about me, and you know, there's that. So we've really been a place of safety, of comfort, where other therapists, again, from all over the world, can fly in, get some therapy work too. So we train, we do intensives.

Dr Andrew Greenland: 8:08

Lovely. So, what does a typical day or week look like for you at the moment? I'm I'm yeah, dare say that no day or week is the same, but just to give us some sense of how you fit into this operation and how you fit the kind of the clinical, the training, the administrative, the management of this operation.

Tessa Groshoff: 8:25

Oh, Andrew, let me tell you, every day is a new beginning. Every day is a new beginning. For me, I have to do, I really, because of the work we do, I'm gonna really do a lot of um, I wake up, I'm gonna do my grounding, whether it's meditations, prayers, yogas, making sure that I'm grounded because every day is a little different. So if I'm coming in, like I just finished two days ago, um teaching a five-day basic EMDR training, right? But even every day still needs to have that grounding moment. So there's gonna be in in the day, it's gonna be either I'm doing basic trainings in there, or I might be seeing a client, and a client, I don't do hourly sessions anymore. I'm gonna do intensive. So that may look like I'm gonna be with a client for four to eight hours, and it could be one day up to 14 days. There could be the time where I am taking calls from doing some consultations for people in there. Most of the time, not most time, it's very sporadic. I'm always creating classes, always creating. So if I'm not, then I'm out in the art studio creating some classes, doing that, and then when I'm not doing that, I get to do paperwork. So, you know, the the great fun of paperwork that we just love.

Dr Andrew Greenland: 9:52

Of course.

Tessa Groshoff: 9:56

Um of course.

Dr Andrew Greenland: 9:58

Um, now I know a little bit about EMDR, but for the uninitiated, can you give a kind of very potted summary of what it is and kind of how it works? Now I appreciate this is your thing, and it's probably you know it at a very deep level, but just a very high-level overview for listeners, just so they give us something else.

Tessa Groshoff: 10:15

You bet. And actually, Andrew, it's really true. With EMDR, yes, I know a lot, but most of the time you have to experience EMDR to actually get the full understanding. But what EMDR really is, it's an evidence-based psychotherapy that really is used for working with PTSD, CPTSD in there. And what it what really is happening is we're looking at what's called the AIP, that's the adaptive information processing system. And it uses an eight-phase, three-prong modality in there. So what happens is we're looking at past, present triggers, future anticipatory events. So, quick example really is when we're going through trauma, it's important if a bear is coming toward me, I need my amygdala to say, um, you're not safe. I do not need my abstract brain to say, well, let me think about it. I need my brain to say I'm not safe. What happens a lot of times in trauma is our brain gets frozen and we believe the irrational negative belief, I'm not safe, is true. And so as time goes, things begun to happen, right? And that's that maladaptive information processing. And we begin to believe I'm not safe, I'm a failure, I'm not good enough. All those irrational negative beliefs. So with EMDR, we get a support team, we talk about the past histories, and then we take those events one by one and we start working through those so that the rest of the story can be seen and heard. That's EMDR.

Dr Andrew Greenland: 12:03

Perfect. Thank you. Very succinct, which is very helpful. Um, so what major shifts are you seeing in trauma work and therapy delivery today from your perspective?

Tessa Groshoff: 12:15

You know, I'm really excited, I am really excited to see more people becoming aware of and accepting and embracing PTSD, our trauma work, not as a deficit, but more as one where we can start having more conversations in there. It's still really hard, of course, right? We're so used to compartmentalizing. We're so used to, well, I'm just gonna put it over here, and then I need to get this other stuff done. But I do see more conversations. Our younger generations are accepting, you know, that disturbances aren't okay always in there. It does hurt my heart in the fact that we still have a generation that this is not an okay, therapy is not okay, right? So to be able to really embrace and really make it a soft landing when they come into my office, to really embrace that part of the fear of I'm broken instead of something happened to you. Let's talk about it, let's work through it. Is there a shift? You bet. Is it going as fast as I wish? No, that monetary value is not supporting our clients in the way that it should, and that is really difficult and hard. But I think the more that we see, and the more thank you for doing more of these conversations so that we can gather more people, we can have more of a holistic approach so that this conversation is normalized instead of penalized.

Dr Andrew Greenland: 13:50

Brilliant. Um now you do intensives, that's part of your operation. But how how are clinicians in general responding to the demand for intensives? I'm guessing a lot of this is driven by the clients. They want to have something, you know, an intense period of helping them to overcome their issues. And how how how do other clinicians uh respond to this kind of demand?

Tessa Groshoff: 14:12

So being able to do an intensive, I feel very, very lucky that I can do an intensive. It's a it's a difficult platform for for two reasons. One, it's a little bit more costly, right? In that fact, there's always discounts in places like that. However, insurance doesn't pay, doesn't pay for an intensive, right? However, one of the nice parts with the intensive format can be if you think about it, if I'm working with somebody for four, let's just say a minimum, I'm doing a four-hour every day for five days. That's 21 hours, that's 20 one-hour sessions. And those 20 sessions, typically, if you're seeing a client every week, that's 20 weeks. So in five days, we can just work through a lot of this. Now, clinicians, most clinicians are going to see their clients 50, 60 minutes in there, and this is still what's wonderful with EMDR is because it's a it's an it's it has a format and eight phases, so that we can still guide the clients in that time zone, you know, of the of what you have in in your session, and making sure the biggest part is always making sure your client leaves grounded so that we can give them an insight, but also have them leaving grounded when they leave our office so they'll come back next week. Yeah.

Dr Andrew Greenland: 15:45

Do you have um a take on the integration of IFS and EMDR? Is that growing a growing interest from practitioners here?

Tessa Groshoff: 15:52

Huge, huge. I was just in London just taking a training. Um, what last I think was last month. Absolutely. Anytime I can come to London, I tell you. Uh so absolutely IFS is a fantastic modality um to really bringing in parts work in there and being able, you know, we have these different parts. And so in IFS, you've got that manager, it's kind of that protector role. You've got that firefighter, which is kind of that reaction, and then you've got you've got this exile who is really just the little little. And so if we think about it in trauma, so much of us can be that protector, right? But when we get to be able to say, who's here with me right now? What part is with me right now? Then a lot of times our clients can be able to see, oh, this is the part important, important, and we need to recognize the different parts that we have so that in different environments, not just in the therapy room, but in life in general, what part is coming out right now so that we can be able to find a balance. And life is so hard at trying to be balanced that the more that we can be able to see what are these pieces of us and how can we support in that and that voice that comes out. I love IFS, working with IFS and EMDR.

Dr Andrew Greenland: 17:18

You probably ought to say for listeners what IFS stands for, otherwise it's going to frustrate those that don't know.

Tessa Groshoff: 17:24

Internal family systems. Yep.

Dr Andrew Greenland: 17:27

Thank you.

Tessa Groshoff: 17:28

Yeah, sorry.

Dr Andrew Greenland: 17:29

That's okay. I just know we'll probably get a load of questions coming in on the um on the podcast site if we don't um talk about the abbreviations we use, no, but thank you for that. Okay, so I mean what you you essentially run a business, you are doing the training and the clinical work. What is um going particularly well for you from a kind of a business perspective in the work that you do right now?

Tessa Groshoff: 17:48

You know, I think what's really going well, one, I have a fantastic team. A fantastic team. And I will say, as we know, with the work that we do, it is so important to have that team or that place that you can be able to go feel supported. So that is fantastic. I think what's fantastic is we have a lot more quantitative and qualitative studies that are really supporting being able to use these modalities that we're using, the EMDR, IFS, Expressive Arts, that I think sometimes really helps the validation to our populations that we want to work with in there. So it's exciting to see that. It's exciting to see more people coming on board for the EMDR training, not just well that's something weird, what's that voodoo box, what's going on there, right? So we can have a little bit more. Um we have a lot more people out in the public that are utilizing that are talking about EMDR in there. Um it's it's Andrew, it's just so positive right now. It's so beautiful. I mean, in a heart, in a heartbreaking way, in a heartbreaking way, in the fact that the clients that I'm getting to work with, the clients that were coming in, have extreme PTSD. Extreme, and that does break my heart, but they're they're coming, they're coming at a faster rate. And I think that is beautiful. And a lot for me is my goal is not to be a billboard. I want to be that ripple. And when I'm teaching in classes, and my goal is not to have big classes. I like to have 14 to 19 people in my classes because they're those therapists are the ripples, and they're the ones that are gonna go meet all of these people that are coming to us that need some love. And so for me, I think that is the most positive piece is that what I get to do is be that stand, that anchor, and watching these really incredible therapists go out and take take this modality.

Dr Andrew Greenland: 19:58

Amazing.

Tessa Groshoff: 20:00

Yeah.

Dr Andrew Greenland: 20:00

So on the other side, what are some of the um perhaps the challenges or the bottlenecks in your work? And is there anything that you've had to do to kind of overcome those that you're happy to share?

Tessa Groshoff: 20:11

Oh, I always say a challenge is an opportunity.

Dr Andrew Greenland: 20:15

Nice framing.

Tessa Groshoff: 20:16

Right, right. It's also I was created with be positive blood. So everybody's doomed anyway. There's not a negative in there. Probably some of the challenges, some of the challenges I think really honestly, the biggest challenge has always been that monetary value, where some people say it's expensive. And that's to me, I grew up on a farm, right? Where we didn't have electricity, we didn't have water. And so I don't see people as a as a dollar bill. I see them as a human being. And so letting them know they matter, that there is a frustration toward the financial. So that is always frustrating. So again, we're always working, especially my team is so good about working through that part. But it's frustrating sometimes to see other people, other, you know, hear other conversations where agencies say, well, we have to make a certain amount of money. That is frustrating to me. That is the biggest piece because everybody is worthy and deserving of being able to heal or have an awareness or a skill level in there. That's probably my biggest challenge. My biggest challenge. And that in when I sit down to create a class, my biggest challenge is I get so many ideas, is actually staying focused on creating that one class. Yeah.

Dr Andrew Greenland: 21:39

When you talk about the the monetary value, are we talking about um clients needing um help, or we're talking about the the training side, or actually both in terms of a little bit of both, honey.

Tessa Groshoff: 21:48

A little bit of both. I think our clients come in and they with intensives it's a little bit, you know, it's it because insurance doesn't pay for that. Some of the monetary values, even on side of um insurance base, where you're only allowed a certain amount of sessions in there, the co-pays that come in sometimes. So people again think, well, I can't do this work, or I don't have that co-pay, or my insurance is only going to pay for. And that does happen. Then I see clients or I see therapists who come in and they said, Can I do EMDR? Hit all of the eight phases, but I'm only allowed five sessions with my clients. So sometimes that can detour the therapist of going, Well, I shouldn't go through the training of EMDR because I can only do this in so many sessions. So really big part of what Coast to Coast does is we work with those therapists. Hey, this is how you can support your system, support your agency, support your population in there. And I think that's why it's important the more we talk about the rhythm of EMDR, how do we support inside of a structure and still allow the client to have that freedom of movement, but still be supported in their journey too. So I think that's some of the frustrations, but ways to kind of overcome it is exactly what you're doing, gathering people, let's talk about it, so that it can be more of a normed conversation instead of again that detriment. Yeah.

Dr Andrew Greenland: 23:29

And I think you've mentioned there's no shortage of um clients that need your help from what you were saying earlier on. But does that in itself create a bottleneck for you? I mean, if you've got more than you can handle, if it, for instance, if you had a um a raft of new patients showing up tomorrow, um, would anything break? I mean, don't say you, hopefully, or your team, but where where would that kind of land for you?

Tessa Groshoff: 23:51

You know, I think one of the things, thank you for that. And you're right, our job is to work ourselves out of a job. However, I don't think that's gonna happen, unfortunately, right? We I think what's beautiful at Coast to Coast, because we do so much training and we're so involved in different parts of the world, too. I just finished working with somebody from India who I'm excited as soon as he finishes training. If somebody from India called and needed somebody, I can refer them to India, right? We've got people in Japan, I can refer to Japan. I've got people I just finished in um uh Portugal, right? Who so there's when people are coming, they're questioning. The nice part is we've trained so many people that and we that we feel that when we refer, right, we want to have the dedication to the grounding of the training of the therapist, so that when we do get people calling in saying, hey, I need some help. I live here all the way through United States, Canada, right? So we have people that we can refer to that we feel confident. Again, we're not, we don't want to have a big agency. We want to have a big heart that fills the whole world, and we can be able to know who do we send safely, these that have been hurt, those bruised hearts that we can send to. So absolutely. The more we can gather, I want small classes, but I sure want to gather lots of footprints so that we can just give that journey to others. Lovely.

Dr Andrew Greenland: 25:31

Sounds like you've achieved an amazing reach. If you've got sort of people all around the world phoning in for, you know, how do they get help? How do they get a practitioner? How do you manage to achieve such an amazing reach? It's very impressive.

Tessa Groshoff: 25:42

Thank you. And you know what? I think it's the dedication, I think it's the authenticity, I think it's our the team is our heart. And that is why I think when we began, we didn't, and and we still, we social media is not our forte. Loving is our forte. Social media is not our forte, as we know many, many therapists will say that, right? In that fact. I think the beauty is it's been word of mouth, the trainings that we do, the intensives that we do. We've hit, you know, higher and higher areas, which once you get into circles, right? That kind of spreads out. So that's really it's so much of it has been word of mouth. We've got our website going, we're working that way. We've had a lot more um interaction through that. But Andrew, I really believe, I I really do believe what we're dedicated and how we're dedicated, it's it's authentic. It's authentic because the the vulnerability that we're asking our clients to be, it's not fair not to be. Yeah.

Dr Andrew Greenland: 26:54

Um so if I gave you a magic wand and you could fix anything in the business tomorrow, what would that be? And it might be the um the financial stuff you mentioned earlier on, or something else. Um, you're free to use it how you will. What are you gonna do?

Tessa Groshoff: 27:08

Well, I always, you know, I always tease my clients or or even my therapist, and I'll say, you know, I have Harry Potter's wand. I just couldn't quite afford that magic that came with it. So if you're handing me, Andrew, the magic that goes with Harry Potter's Oh, absolutely.

Dr Andrew Greenland: 27:23

It's all in one and I will I will embrace that.

Tessa Groshoff: 27:29

You know, I think that the aware, I if I could have that, it would be the awareness that healing is possible, that healing is is a place to be, and it doesn't have to be one that has synthetic views, that it comes from the heart and the soul inside of there. Yes, would I fix the fix the financial? Oh, you bet. I I I would love that. Reality isn't gonna, it isn't gonna be there even with the magic, it's gonna have that peace. So I think I would love my wand to be able to give that bit of hope and that bit of information and that bit of just dedication to all people to believe that they matter and they're worthy. You bet. And I think that would be the billboard. I'm not a billboard, it's the ripple. Would I love to be able to reach more people and being able to allow them to see and give themselves permission that they are important and there is that availability out there?

Dr Andrew Greenland: 28:36

Lovely, yeah. And you've been on quite a journey. Um, and if you were to start Coast to Coast EMDR again tomorrow, would you do anything differently?

Tessa Groshoff: 28:45

Oh no. No, I mean, every every single step, whether it was pulling my hair out, whether it was butting heads, actually, we never butt heads. The the team, we are really we are we're a good team. Would I do anything different? No, it's all learning. It is all learning, and I think that's important to be able to embrace, even if we don't like it, there's something in there that we need to learn from. And so, would I do anything different? Probably not. I'm learning, so we are shifting, so we are doing things differently, but I wouldn't have known that if I hadn't known it and learned it. Sure.

Dr Andrew Greenland: 29:31

Is there anything you've done that hasn't worked? I mean, you're you're glad that you went through that because it was a learning and you learned from the mistake. Was there anything that you've done that didn't work? Um, move on.

Tessa Groshoff: 29:43

Do I say that out loud?

Dr Andrew Greenland: 29:45

Only if you're happy to share. I'm just nosing.

Tessa Groshoff: 29:47

Oh, oh yeah. I'm you know, there's a lot of things that I've tried on, absolutely, that just didn't quite pan out in the way that I thought really should. Um you know, I think I think the things that that I that just didn't work was jumping in a little bit too soon sometimes because my enthusiasm is there, right? Before and I think that's where I've I've learned, right? It's so important to have grounding, to have grounding in there. And I've learned pace, balance, burnout, compassion, fatigue. You you bet, you bet. If you if you can't tell already, I'm very compassionate about healing in people and offering a different view and I think finding a finding making sure you know that I that I continue the balance. But there was there was a time I was a very I I took too much on yeah, that didn't go so well. Yeah, yeah.

Dr Andrew Greenland: 31:01

Well, I can tell there's a lot of self-care that you have now to kind of protect yourself from you know overstretching yourself. You talk about your kind of practices and your routine first thing in the morning. So I guess it's and because of the nature of the work that you do, I mean, dealing with trauma patients, it'd be very easy to get um burnt out, wouldn't it? I guess.

Tessa Groshoff: 31:19

It's true. Well, and a little insight on that too, is and Andrew, you've you work inside of this a lot with those hormonal balances that right with really looking at the engine versus, and so I have to really watch my cortisol levels. So I bring in not only the integrity of, but I bring in an insight. So um I have Cushing's disease and I've had two pituitary tumors in there, and those are cortisol producing. So I've learned, you know, when you when you need to stay inside that window of tolerance so that you know I don't go into that orbital hyperactivity space. So I've learned skills to bring myself down. So, you know, a lot of times when we talk about body, that you know, that machine and the mind, that is really so so important. That is a good way to incorporate, you know, holistic. But also sometimes we need to have you know that that synthetic, we need to have that balance coming in, but noticing where your hormones are, how does that work too is so so important.

Dr Andrew Greenland: 32:31

Totally. And in closing, then so what's next for you and coast to coast EMDR in the next year or so? Anything on the cards that you can share?

Tessa Groshoff: 32:40

You know, I think gathering more, just continuing to gather, to continue to share, to support um all people, again, our therapists and our clients, and being able to look at a public that maybe not know what's available for them. So doing what we're doing, continuing to grow in the pattern of growth, but not in losing the integrity. Yeah, yeah. I want to go to Greenland. I haven't gone, or not Iceland, sorry, Greenland. I want to go to Iceland. So that's that's my next place. Wow.

Dr Andrew Greenland: 33:14

On that note, Tessa, thank you so much for joining us today. It's been such a rich conversation. Thank you for sharing your journey and your insights so openly. It's been really um a pleasure to have you on the podcast.

Tessa Groshoff: 33:25

Andrew, thank you. Really thank you for what you're doing.