Dr Andrew Greenland: 0:00

Welcome back to Voices in Health and Women. This is the podcast where we explore the stories, challenges, and breakthroughs shaping the future of health practices across the UK and beyond. I'm your host, Dr. Andrew Greenland, and today's guest is Dr. Erin Dehan. Dr. Erin Deihan is a clinical psychologist, retreat leader, and founder of Psych Remote, a business born from a bold decision to walk away from the traditional clinic model. After running a successful psychological therapy practice in Glasgow with a team of 15 staff, Erin took the leap into remote first psychological services and now also leads transformational well-being retreats in Crete with current art psychological well-being retreats. So with that, Erin, thank you so much for joining us and welcome to the show.

Dr Erin Deehan: 0:42

Thank you very much, Dr. Greenman, for having me. It's a pleasure.

Dr Andrew Greenland: 0:47

So maybe we could start with your journey. I know you're running a 15-person practice in Glasgow. Can you walk us through what prompted your transition out of that model into what you're doing now?

Dr Erin Deehan: 0:58

Okay, so this is actually a very long story. I'm no longer running a physical practice in Glasgow with 15 therapists, and it has been a hell of a journey to get where I am right now. So maybe I'll start off with you know, I actually went back into studies from a very late age. I was 30 years of age when I decided to go back to school, and with that said, I needed to go back and do an access diploma as I didn't have the grades to even go into uni yet. So I decided to do that. And when I went in to study my undergrad in psychology, and you know, went on further than to carry out the doctorate in counseling psychology. Um my you know, underlying reasons for going into that, you know, stemmed from various um childhood experiences. I worked actually in the airlines for for nine years, so I was used to being around multicultural, uh diverse people with various backgrounds and you know, coming from different experiences and working with different people from all various backgrounds with different experiences as well. So when I also have you know, my past experiences, I have experienced severe trauma in my life, which um you know came to the came to the surface when I was working in an airline out in Dubai. And I went through a very, very um terrible period of my life where I had thought, okay, um, firstly, I didn't get the support at the time that I needed. Um, and I also knew that I needed to, I wanted to change something within my life, but I also wanted to understand my own um vulnerabilities, my own behaviors, and human behavior in general. So that's what took me to go back to study at the age of 30. So I continued on to my doctorate training, and I guess you know, as a therapist, part of our journey of training is to, you know, we carry out the mandatory personal therapy. However, I don't know if um, you know, others, I I know others in my cohort have experienced this, that you don't you're not completely always fully transparent with that journey because you're also trying to impress and you're trying to um you know meet the standards of the doctorate, and there's a fear there perhaps of um, you know, do will I pass these exams? Will I pass my doctorate? So I I believe that I carried out some of my therapy, and I think part of my drive to go in straight away as soon as the doctorate was finished to private practice was maybe also based on a need to prove to prove myself, to prove the world, due to um an ongoing need to continue therapy. So I went into it without a clue, Dr. Greenland. I went into as a sole trader, um COVID hit, and the you know, the referrals went through the roof, and I kind of fell into that journey of okay, now I I really need to start hiring people. So I learned um with a lot of support, a very, very, very good supervisor, and um you know I learned by doing so. The practice grew. Um, it grew very quickly, probably too quickly when I reflect back on it. Um, and that's how the journey started anyway. I was always interested in having a psychological therapy practice, but with a um holistic side to it also, because that's as part of my logo, you know, we heal through the mind, body, and soul, and the soul can mean um various things for for people, whether it's spiritual, um, you know, holistic, religious, whatever it is for that individual. And so that was the start of the reasoning behind um how the practice started. I can continue on to tell you the the rest of the story. So I the practice was um had been very successful for many years, continued to grow. Now there are always obviously, you know, your peaks and troughs of owning a business, of having a business, which also, you know, can have a little bit of a conflict on you also being a therapist and carrying out this work with clients. So I put my heart and soul into this. I worked seven days a week. Um, I made sure that everything was high standards, that we were following all the guidelines of the HCPC, you know, and BCP and BACP, and that, you know, there's so much involved with running a practice as such, you know, you have to ensure that your governance is on point, you have to ensure GDPR, um, who you're hiring, and if that's if their standards are high, you have your own supervision, you have, you know, there was there's so much involved, but I threw myself completely into that line of work um and became burnt out at stages um during that process and had to navigate that as well. So once the the practice had gone through peaks and troughs, I realized throughout the four years, the first four years, that you know, I I didn't want to do this alone anymore. I didn't have anyone else who was on board as a director, and you know, I brought someone else on board um to my practice, and unfortunately, um I probably put too much responsibility on that person, and things started to fall, things started to fall apart um financially. Um, I wasn't aware of all of the downfalls that had happened financially within the practice. And once I did become aware, it was almost this um oh, I had to put out so many fires, right? I had to make sure that um how do I resolve this, how do I save this? And it became this overwhelm of stress, um, which obviously affected me because you know, as therapists, we are also human and we go through things at times as well. So this is why they have your competencies where you have to learn when you take a step back and um realize that the stress is not worth it anymore, you know. So this was the reason. So the practice um it started to to fall apart. I realized that you know I couldn't keep up with the the demands that was there, and I made I had already started the journey anyway, at the start of the year of a dream that I've had for many years of and going back and forth to Greece of setting up psychological retreats, well-being retreats that involved um holistic approaches as well. And um, I decided okay, it's now the time that I absolutely stop that journey of holding on to all the stressors and trying to perhaps prove a point and to look after myself in this journey, but also to do something that I find is just um life-changing for people to have those that intense five-day retreat, you know.

Dr Andrew Greenland: 9:32

Thank you. Thank you very much for that such an honest account. It's really um interesting to hear how you've ended up moving on to this new journey. Can you tell us about a little bit about a little about your um remote work and what your business looks like now? Yes, of course. But I'm very interested to hear how things are now.

Dr Erin Deehan: 9:54

Yeah. So um we are now psyche remote, and you know, it cuts out all the stressors of having a uh all the extra finances, and we have a platform where it is not just it's more of a wellness hub. So what is involved here is there's um a referral resource for people to come on and check out what their needs are. So I'm I'm currently still building on that, but at the moment we are made up of psychologists, psychotherapists, holistic practitioners, life coaches, personal trainers, and nutritionists. And the idea is that you know it shows that we are here for the mind, body, and soul. Um, so that's something that is ongoing where people can go and find whatever they need, that support on the website. Um within Greece, the retreats, we carry out um between three and five-day retreats where people will come. We obviously need to make sure that there's no risk factors and no risk assessments are carried out. So the retreats are mainly are not for any severe mental health issues, the retreats are for people who um have a specific goal that they want to work through. So whether that be that you know it's a five days of CBT because they want to you know become more confident in their work, or it might be a couple's retreat where you know the couples want to communicate. Sorry, Andrew. Um so the the retreats are made up of also psychologists, um, holistic practitioners, life coaches, personal trainers, and nutritionists, and we have a private chef. Um, we have we carry out so the the pre-assessment is the risk assessment before people come on to the retreats, and and then we carry out um more of an in-depth assessment to find out what the person needs um when they come to the retreat, whether you know it be that these they need more of a psychological input or they need more of a holistic input and what activities they like. So what one of the one of our plans for 26 is to carry out an ADHD management retreat where it's the you know various activities, you you know, people with ADHD can't sit down and do um mindfulness, it doesn't particularly work well with people with ADHD, so it's how can we do a mindful activity? So it might be doing pottery making, um, so they're doing something also while they are mindful. Um, people who come to the retreats they have individual sessions in the morning, um, they get a chance to relax. We have activities, we have a private yacht trip as well where we we do some sound bowls and holistic work on the actual yacht in the middle of the sea, which is absolutely amazing. And we also carry out then the group work um in the evenings. So, and at the end of the retreat, whatever their goal is, we always have um you know feedback and a kind of let and go ceremony, if you will, and then some follow-up sessions to help them carry on those goals when they leave the retreat.

Dr Andrew Greenland: 13:46

Amazing. And what does a typical week look like for you now? I mean, obviously, I appreciate every week is going to be different, and it will depend on whether you've got a retreat running that week, but I'm just trying to get some sense of the contrast between how your week in the business looks now compared to what it was before in a completely different kind of world, as it were.

Dr Erin Deehan: 14:06

Yeah, so um, Dr. Greenland, I have taken a real step back from the clinical involvement um with therapists. Um, again, just to be completely transparent and honest about my journey. Um, when the the practice went into financial difficulty, you know, I had a lot of rightly so angry therapists. And you know, I'm I suppose I'm still you know overcoming the backlash that has come from that. So my decision was okay, I don't want to be clinically responsible for other people's clients. So my week really is taking in referrals, maybe carrying out a pre-assessment where I would carry out a pre-assessment to refer to the appropriate clinician, and then the clinician takes on that full clinical responsibility or personal trainer. So I'm I'm carrying out that at the moment, and we um my week really entails having my own um client work, which you know I have some regular clients every week, um marketing. So, yes, so my my life looks a lot different from previous. I no longer take on the clinical responsibility. I take the I do the pre-assessments, refer them to the appropriate clinicians, carry out my own client work. Um, I'm carrying out a lot of marketing at the moment, trying to get a hand on you know the um appropriate audience and how young people work these days, which is via TikTok, which is not something that I am particularly clued up in. And planning our next retreat, which um the next one will be in April, so it has to be very meticulously planned, and you have to ensure that you put the um, I suppose, the right people in a group as well. So that's what my week looks like at the moment, alongside my own personal space, because one thing that I have absolutely learned throughout this whole experience is that you have to, you know, we we preach it as service to others, but do we always particularly carry out what we preach? And that's one thing that I've learned is that you have to look after yourself. So, you know, I'm I'm doing a lot of um self-care as well at the moment. I suppose there's still some healing involved with um you know the grief of of what has happened in the past practice as well.

Dr Andrew Greenland: 17:01

Thank you. So you're really working at the intersection of psychology and holistic well-being. Um, what shifts are you seeing in client needs or expectations, particularly since the pandemic, which obviously affects the clients, but also I know it's affected you and how you were working before.

Dr Erin Deehan: 17:18

There has been firstly a massive shift in people what I have what I've seen in my experience, people want to carry out therapy in the comfort of their own home. Um, and online in in my experience has worked really well for people. I believe that you know there's this shift anyway of of you know everything turning IT. And I also have recognized that, you know, along with you know, we always have to carry out RCPD. However, in particular, I find that young people, you know, their minds are working so fast, they they I feel like they need that extra. They it's you know, we can carry out talking therapy, and you know, my my particular way of working is my grounding approach is CBT, but I very much integrate um various approaches as and when a client needs, and I'm I'm finding more and more that people just need that space. I also have to say that I usually have clients that once they've carried out their psychological therapy, you know, they're offered um to continue carrying out holistic approaches, and that's been something that has been, you know, they they really have grasped on to um in my experience, having that all around mind, body, and soul.

Dr Andrew Greenland: 19:01

There's been a massive shift to remote care and telehealth. Um I mean, is that just being pragmatic, or do you think there are some deeper benefits in how it supports people's healing? I mean, you've you've you've been in both worlds, and I guess a lot of people when they started doing telehealth were perhaps a little bit reluctant because they wanted that kind of face-to-face in the room contact. But are there actually any advantages over doing it this way? And do you miss anything from the old the old way of doing things?

Dr Erin Deehan: 19:30

I think there are definitely advantages and disadvantages. Um a lot of clients, once they try it, they they realize that you can still have that therapeutic depth, that connection with your therapist online. And the benefits are again, people can be in the comfort of their own home, or if they um haven't got the space at home and they they have to carry it out um during a work period. Period where, if their work's not too stressful, they can, you know, carry out a session in their car or have a private office in their workplace where they can carry out therapy. So you know it's becoming a real benefit for people that don't have that privacy. I also think that the disadvantages, however, are that real um, which is something I very much miss. Um, it it feels a little bit more personal when you're sitting there in a room with with a client, and you are able to, I feel like maybe that therapeutic relationship and trust can be made potentially slightly quicker when you have that person in this safe space where they know that they're in this room and it's their safe space. So I guess it varies from person to person, but that's my experience anyway. And I definitely do miss face-to-face therapy. However, that is the beauty of carrying out retreats, is that you get to have um clients face to face for 24-7 for five days.

Dr Andrew Greenland: 21:13

Got it. And with the retreats, I mean, what how does it kind of fit into your overall vision? I mean, are they supposed to be, or in your view, restorative, preventative, transformative, or all of all the all of the above?

Dr Erin Deehan: 21:26

I think all of the above, Dr. Greenland. Um, you know, my experience, people who want to go on a retreat, okay, there's the the sunshine aspect of it. You know, the the beach, the swimming, you know, all the activities are involved with being abroad. However, people who have gone to retreat, they really are looking for something that, you know, perhaps they don't feel that they need to go through weekly sessions of therapy or fortnightly sessions of therapy, and they just have this specific goal or something in their mind that they really just want to have that really intense three to three or five days. It's usually five days of work and the space to be able to do that. Um, you know, when you are carrying out therapy, you have your weekly sessions, you give um their them perhaps their tasks that they carry out throughout the week, and and then they so that they're not relying on that one session a week. However, you know, what you can find with some clients is that they find it difficult to even do the work in between the sessions, or it might be fortnightly, and you know, I just feel like doing a five-day retreat where it's more intense, people are really getting, and I've seen the the real benefits of um having that different aspects of well-being in a five-day, and then they take that home. And I have definitely seen people who found it um very transformative, have continued on that journey when they have gone home. The other beauty of carrying out well-being retreats is you not only you know do you do you have an amazing relationship with the team that you're working with, um, but also the other people, the other clients who are on that retreat, um, they develop really close-knit connections and relationships thereafter because they're all coming on this journey for different reasons, but they're coming on this journey because they have a shared um need um to do some sort of um healing, transformation, personal growth, whatever that might be. And it is absolutely amazing to see. I think that's one of my favorite parts of carrying out retreats, is seeing how people bond and how they form those connections. Um, in particular, when you do group work, um, because everyone's there for the same need, people tend tend to, in this particular environment of a retreat and being in the in this the sun, people have been so open and you know very vulnerable. And it's just been so powerful. I think the group work is one of the most powerful parts of the retreat where people are coming together to have that to share, you know, what they've been experiencing and what they need. So it's been amazing.

Dr Andrew Greenland: 24:35

It sounds really, really impressive. But I guess um building something like this isn't without its challenges. And I'm just wondering what the challenges have been in building something that aligns so closely with your values while particularly trying to protect your own mental health after you know things that happened to you before.

Dr Erin Deehan: 24:51

Yeah, absolutely. I guess the challenges are, well, in particular in Greece, the challenges are the it's very seasonal with flights. Um, but that's okay. Um I haven't, if I'm really honest, come across too many challenges. Maybe if I look at it in terms of when you do a really in-depth, carry out a really in-depth assessment process to ensure that the group that is coming together, so you might have five people in one retreat and they may all have different needs, but it's to ensure that you know you might have someone who um perhaps has some issues, for example, in their past of you know, being in a c around men, for example, or the opposite around women, and then you're putting the group together, and you have to be so careful of that because you're in such a um enclosed and um you know close-knit environment. So that can that can be tricky. Um, other examples of you know, perhaps there are people on the retreat who maybe don't particularly get along. So I haven't come across too much of that at all. However, it is something that is part of the challenge of the retreat. And apart from that, Dr. Greenland, I I have not experienced that many challenges. It's something that I'm so grateful to have found, and I'm so glad that I have decided to do this um full time.

Dr Andrew Greenland: 26:41

Brilliant. And um you obviously do a lot of self-care. You've mentioned that before, you've learned from the previous thing. What is your sort of self-care routine? And do you have any advice for other practitioners, um, people in training perhaps to stop themselves burning out? What the things they need to look out for, and how you would advise them.

Dr Erin Deehan: 27:01

Yeah, absolutely. So, well, really, you know, my main advice is to look at the work, um, the the mandatory personal therapy that I spoke to you about. Have you really um, you know, the healing process and carrying out your own personal development and personal growth, growth? It never stops. It's always, there's always something, isn't there, that we have to look at or we come across, or you know, when you work with clients that you might be, it might trigger something within you or within your past. And I guess the advice is to really ask yourself, okay, did I did I do enough of that? Was I, you know, authentic, transparent enough, and honest with myself when I was carrying out that personal mandatory therapy? Not everybody will need it. And if the answer is no, I absolutely um would recommend that you carry out some sort of therapy after your journey and experiences of being a therapist for a while. Um you know it's it's it's funny when we sit on the other side of the end of the you know, the other chair. However, it's so important to look at your reasons behind doing what you're doing. As I, you know, had explained to you, Dr. Greenland. I feel like I I went into um setting up a practice looking back now, perhaps for not all of the correct reasons behind it initially. You know, I always had a dream of carrying out the practice, and I always had a dream of, you know, that when the practice was full and clients were coming in, I was so, so proud of that. It was the most rewarding and amazing experience. However, my advice is to look at are you are you going into um setting up something either as a sole trader, as a director, um, for all the right reasons and really have really reflect on that. Um, you know, whether you if you are trying to prove something to others or prove to yourself. The other advice that I would give is try not to do anything everything on your own. You know, definitely if you need the help or support or you find someone that can take over that workload for you, um get support, get the help that you need. Don't try and do it on your own. Uh, other self-care tips is always, and you know, we talk about this all the time as therapists about work-life balance, always ensure that you have a work-life balance because that is something that I absolutely um did not take my own advice that I would give to clients, and I worked and worked and worked. You have to know your own limits, you have to have your own space, you have to have your own time, you know, and self-care means different for everyone, as you know. Um, I now have the pleasure and benefit of being able to jump in the sea to do cold water swimming in the mornings or evening, in the winter, not in the summer, not so cold. Um, walks on the beach, fresh air. Um, I have become very mindful of you know, my being in the in the present moment more often. Um, I carry out my own uh holistic work. I've tried other experiences just to see what it's like, such as panic healing, and um yeah, explore that and always ensure another little bit of advice is ensure that you definitely are transparent with your supervisor, with your client work, the load of work that you're doing. But apart from that, that you talk to people close to you, friends, and you know, and have that that you're not always the therapist, that you're not there for everybody else, people have to also be there for you.

Dr Andrew Greenland: 31:19

Thank you. That's such valuable insights and such an honest, honest and helpful advice. Thank you. Um, it sounds like things are in a fairly good place, and you know, you found your calling in what you do at the moment. But if you did have a magic wand, would there be anything that you would change about how the business runs tomorrow? If you could magically change anything, it might not be that there is anything to change, but is there anything that you would that's an interesting question.

Dr Erin Deehan: 31:44

If I had a magic wand, what would I change? I probably wouldn't change anything about the present right now, Dr. Greenland. I'm I'm still very much enjoying this process, and you know, I think coming from such a stressful environment makes me so grateful for today. Um, however, I if I had a magic wand, I would definitely change the past, and I would love to change the opinions of perhaps some of the people who, you know, without getting into any any detail, who I would love to let them know that I didn't, uh my business didn't have a downfall um because it was something that I that I meant to happen, that it was meant to happen. It was something that you know also happened to me. However, I put my hands up to a lot of um mistakes and business mistakes, personal mistakes, and you know, wish I had more knowledge of business perhaps before I went into it. So if I had a magic wand, I'd probably cut out part of that period of my life. But right now, I wouldn't change anything.

Dr Andrew Greenland: 33:09

Amazing. And if your business suddenly doubled in demand next week, um obviously you'll some some some people would regard that as a nice problem to have. You might look at it slightly differently from the journey you've been on and the self-care. But how would you handle that? What would be your kind of take on it?

Dr Erin Deehan: 33:28

Dr. Greenland, I wouldn't allow that to happen anymore. I definitely, when we talk about you know competency and knowner limits, I now know my limits, you know. So I'm I'm not here carrying out retreats because I need to be the next millionaire, or you know, it's it for me, um carrying out some retreats during the summer months, carrying out um some client work, being able to run a small a small organization where I have a ref I have I'm using that as a referral resource is enough. It's enough for me.

Dr Andrew Greenland: 34:07

And finally, what what are what does the future hold? What do you plan to do over the next six to twelve months with Psyche Remote in your practice?

Dr Erin Deehan: 34:14

So the future for Psyche Remote is probably that it is um it flows quite naturally as a service, and the clinicians are all doing quite well with their own referrals and their own caseloads and managing that quite well and happy. Um, the future for the psyche retreats is to continue and be able to do that you know monthly, um, even during the winter months would be really nice. And perhaps what I would love to do is start to integrate more into Greece and connect. I have connected with so many amazing people over here that you know are part of the community of the healing profession and perhaps start working more with them. One thing that I have recognized about you know the about Greece is that it's very fresh for people to even start talking about their mental health. It's very fresh for people to delve into that world of um any holistic work or and but however, people are ready for it, they're open to it. And I think my future is going to be to integrate even wellness evenings, you know, carrying out maybe some mindfulness evenings here with Greek people, or I think that would be really amazing.

Dr Andrew Greenland: 35:39

Lovely. And on that note, I would like to thank you so much for your time today, for your honest and personal account, with all the valuable advice that you've given fellow practitioners who may be wanting to go into business. Um, I think you've given some really good advice around trying to avoid burnout and creating something which is really sustainable. But I'm very grateful. Thank you so much for joining me today.

Dr Erin Deehan: 36:01

Thank you very much for having me.