Dr Andrew Greenland: 0:00

Welcome to Voices in Health and Wellness, where we explore honest conversations with forward-thinking practitioners and founders who are challenging the status quo of care. I'm your host, Dr. Andrew Greenland, and today's guest is someone who brings incredible depth and originality to the table. I'm joined by Dr. Chris Deussing, a licensed clinical social worker, academic, and psychedelic clinician whose approach to therapy blends deep philosophical roots with cutting-edge care models. Chris recently transitioned from a larger group practice to building a boutique, highly personalized clinical model, one that allows them to work more closely with clients. So, Chris, thank you very much for joining us today and welcome to the show.

Dr Chris Deussing: 0:38

Thanks so much, Andrew. An honor to be here. Happy holidays too.

Dr Andrew Greenland: 0:41

Thank you. And to you, sir. Could you perhaps give us a quick overview of where your clinical work has taken you and what's led you to your decision to move from a larger group practice into something more boutique and aligned?

Dr Chris Deussing: 0:54

Sure. Well, I have been in private practice for a while now, over a decade, and in the beginning it was all about size and scalability and wanting to build a large practice. And I've actually found that in this stage in my career, returning to a smaller practice, a boutique practice, allows me to have a bit more of the soul and the spirit that I want to preserve in the therapy I treat and the teams I lead and providing the care that I do at this point in my life, both in standard psychotherapy and in psychedelic-assisted psychotherapies as well.

Dr Andrew Greenland: 1:37

Thank you. And how has that shift um changed the way that you sort of show up professionally and personally for your patients?

Dr Chris Deussing: 1:46

The shift is that I can be really authentic in who I am and what I do. And I find that my voice uh has become much stronger since tightening my practice instead of again that large group practice. Um I find too the camaraderie, the collegiality that comes from a smaller team uh really is uh superior uh to trying to lead a large team. Also, too, in terms of being more agile, uh, the practice can pivot and move towards new modalities, also integrative models that I feel like organ larger organizations would have trouble with. Uh so really I think I can summarize it by having a licensure to practice the way that I want to practice and also to um operate freely uh from a lot of the systems, the systemic um resistances, uh, the systemic structures that oftentimes hinder and inhibit private practices on a larger scale.

Dr Andrew Greenland: 2:54

Thank you. Um interesting to hear a little bit about what you do for your patients, what modalities you're using. And because I'm from the UK and the psychedelic assisted psychotherapy is something we're not really um not really in our sphere. Could you perhaps speak to a little bit about what that involves and how it plays out?

Dr Chris Deussing: 3:12

Sure. Well, it's not monolithic. Uh, first off, there are different shades of psychedelic psychotherapy, there's assisted psychotherapy, there's also IV clinics um and IM clinics which do higher dose uh psychotherapies, um, well, actually ketamine therapies that focus on the medicine primarily, and there isn't much of a therapeutic process going on. In my own practice, um I use psychedelic assisted psychotherapy and we use ketamine, um, where I am located on the east coast of the United States because that is our legal um route. There are underground scenes, however, I prefer to practice with ketamine and above ground. So, what that looks like with me is it is coupled with a therapeutic process. Um, and the therapeutic process is a driver. So, what I mean by that is a lot of people in the psychedelic medicine space they get focused on the medicines and the molecules that we're working with and don't necessarily really focus on the therapy, the preparation and integration work that goes into it. So, with that being said, I find that psychedelic assisted therapies are a wonderful way to catalyze an existing therapeutic process after I've built a relationship with a client and the dynamic and some of a history, and also the treatment relationship, which serves as the container for the psychedelic experience, and then using the experiences, the psychedelic experiences, the medicines, to catalyze and um almost uh accelerate uh the process by providing material that can then be unpacked, the symbols, the metaphors uh can be understood when we return to a standard uh psychotherapy process. So I find that the majority of my clientele that are involved in that protocol go through cyclic um treatment in terms of at points they need medicine sessions, and then we titrate them back, and then when they need them again, we go back into that uh protocol.

Dr Andrew Greenland: 5:20

Thank you. And you've had quite a journey to get to where you are, but what led you into psychotherapy in the first place? And and then how did you eventually end up doing psychedelic assisted therapy? What was the kind of driver for that?

Dr Chris Deussing: 5:34

Sure. I think that there's the standard answers with um, you know, ever since I was young, I wanted to help people. That was one of my big strengths as a kid. My father told me that uh ever since I was very young. However, when we peel back the layers, uh I have my own personal story uh with therapy, uh helping me and really shepherding me through a difficult time in my life. And from that, I learned that healers and in particular psychotherapists oftentimes come from a wounded place and a wounded place that that individual has worked on. So I can honestly say that my arrival in psychotherapy as a professional is really anchored in my personal experiences with it and the trials and tribulations I've had to overcome from earlier in my life. So there's a very personal narrative behind it too, um, which adds a layer of purpose and meaning uh behind the work, which is something that really strikes me too, in terms of our contemporary times. Uh, we've become so focused on seeing therapy as various modalities that the therapists become vessels, almost uh repositories of these various theories and techniques. Uh, I even call them technologies, and then we share them and help people integrate with those models. And to me, there is a much deeper kind of existential realm, both from the therapist and from the client, where we are dealing with these universal questions, uh, questions such as life, death, what does my life mean? Where is my meaning and purpose? So, to circle back to that, um, in undergraduate, I was a philosophy major and very interested too in religions. I studied religion and theology a great deal. And I've actually found that the psychedelic medicine has provided a bridge uh to bring that self into the work that I do. Um, I've talked with a lot of colleagues about this, and I share the sentiment that we are in a spiritual crisis in our modern day, uh, loss of spirituality. I use this term lightly too and in an inclusive manner, meaning to open up conversation. And I feel that the psychedelics can be a pathway uh to reconnect uh with some of these deeper layers of ourselves. And so that is something that also rings true to me in my practice in practicing in a smaller practice, is that we can go deeper versus again being um dispensaries of modalities like, oh, this is a DBT practice. It's more so I want psychotherapy to be delivered with science, soul, and philosophy. And so the psychedelic medicine kind of brings that all together, but also, too, I don't want to make that um false bifurcation as well. This includes regular psychotherapy or treatment as usual, which can be very, very spirit-based and soul-based. One last thing I'll add is something I've been really thinking about theoretically, and this ties into one of my uh colleagues and friends' work, Dr. Samuel Sotillas, is thinking about psychology and the modern psychology's loss of transcendence. Um, modern psychology and psychotherapy has become very what we call horizontal in terms of what's before us in this temporal plane of the world. Now, Dr. Sotillas's work and what I've been trying to build upon is remembering the vertical uh realm of existence as well. And this is includes the atemporal, the timeless, oftentimes accessible through um ancient wisdom and practices and traditions. So it all starts to become full circle there in terms of science, soul, and spirit. And I try to infuse that in both my treatment as usual and my psychedelic therapy clients, and honestly, as a human being moving through life uh myself.

Dr Andrew Greenland: 9:45

Thank you. So, with that, what does a typical day look like for you now? I dare say there is no such thing as a typical day. I'm just curious to know how it pans out for you know for the clinical work, the administrative work. Obviously, you're running a business as well. What does it look like at the moment?

Dr Chris Deussing: 10:00

Uh right now I get up around 4:30, 5 a.m. Uh, it's the only time that I can have some quiet time uh to settle. I love that time of the day. It's very generative. That's when I do my reading, my writing, uh preparing for a podcast at 8:15 a.m. Uh, my creative time, really. And then I move into my clinical day. I see usually about four to six clients a day. However, depending on acuity and need, that may go higher. Um, currently I do not run a group, so all my clients are one-on-one. Sessions traditionally are 50 minutes to an hour long, but psychedelic sessions can be anywhere from two to three hours. So there's another difference in terms of psychedelic assisted therapy and treatment as usual. Uh, I move through my day, I try to take breaks, I try to tend to myself, uh, do self-care in a deep, meaningful way. So, what I mean by that is not just uh sips of mindfulness, really trying to tend to my soul and my spirit because my use of self is the most important tool that I have in the work that I do. Uh, and really trying to practice what I preach in terms of if I'm telling people to drink more water, uh, to feel better, because oftentimes that's the root of a lot of our irritability and frustration, uh, trying to hydrate myself and then also to um remain connected. Uh, I live close to home, so I like to go home and take lunch there and then come back to the office. Uh so constantly trying to recalibrate myself uh between sessions and then in the evening is more of my personal time. Uh I once the once the clock is off in the evening time, I really try to put my phone away and just be present with myself, my loved ones, and engage in this thing called life until the alarm rings at 4 30 in the next morning.

Dr Andrew Greenland: 11:56

I love your emphasis on self-care, it's so important with all patient-facing work, but probably especially with the kind of work that you do and the kind of the nature of the material that you're dealing with. So I'm really impressed with that. So, um, what are you what major shifts are you seeing in the well wellness or mental health space more widely at the moment?

Dr Chris Deussing: 12:16

That is a really layered question. There is so much going on in this uh field. Since I entered private practice about 15 years ago, uh, the pace of change, particularly with um technology, uh, also, uh, of course, we have AI that has come into the space. Uh, the therapy field, too, is under a lot of pressures, not necessarily negative ones, but when I first started, um, it was therapists. Now we have coaching elements, right? We also have the AI elements and apps and various uh technologies starting to provide therapeutic um services. I wouldn't necessarily say they're providing therapy per se, but the field is really um changing and in an exciting way too. When I started private practice, it was just about kind of hanging your shingle out there and doing everything yourself from marketing, uh, content creation, blogging, all that. Now that has really shifted too, in terms of the online presence seems to be everything. So something else I've been delving into is content creation, uh, creating videos, uh, writing, posting on various social platforms, um, my ideas and putting them out there. And I think that's a really important way that we can help bring the field together is by using social media and meetings like this to create community. Uh, because that's the ultimate self-care, uh, being connected in what can seem like a very isolating profession, uh, particularly at the private practice level.

Dr Andrew Greenland: 13:50

Thank you. Well, you mentioned just now about AI, which I'm I'm glad you did because I want to kind of go into that a little bit. Um what do you what are you what do you see the role of AI? I mean, you mentioned about helping getting the messaging out there, but obviously there is some um horror stories about AI giving therapy to patients. And I just want to get your sense on what's happening to that dynamic with AI on the equation, in the equation.

Dr Chris Deussing: 14:16

I've done a lot of thinking about this, Andrew, and there's really a dialectical tension uh between the tech valley philosophy of move fast and breakthrough things, be a disruptor, right? Which is also what drives venture capital, right? Uh investors want to get paid. They want to get paid quickly, they want to see profit on on their investment. On the other end, uh we have the very human side of uh therapy, and I would argue probably medical uh practices and and various medical disciplines as well, where we are working with human beings. And in my humble opinion, really, it's the antithesis of the Tech Valley uh disruptor philosophy in terms of move fast and break things. Really, I think we need to move slow to not break things. Uh so there is that tension there, and everyone is involved in, I feel, a divisive conversation in terms of AI is going to replace us or human beings will never be replaced by AI. They can't do therapy. Um, I actually think AI is here. I mean, it is, and it's going to continue to grow no matter what. We really have to be challenged as therapists to figure out where our own stance lies with AI and do it in an inclusive manner, uh, where we're having conversations with people all over the spectrum in terms of healthcare and AI, because no one person or stance has the answer here. Uh, we don't know the unintended consequences. Now, on the flip side of that, AI can be an incredible force multiplier, uh, can provide um some elements of care, perhaps to underserve populations, rural populations, populations that uh may have trouble affording therapy can also be used between therapy sessions, perhaps, to augment uh the process with an existing therapist. So there's just so much potential out there. Uh it's tough to wrap my head around, though. Uh, and for that for that reason, again, I'm a proponent of move slowly and not break things because the unintended consequences uh could be dire if we're just plunging ahead.

Dr Andrew Greenland: 16:33

Thank you. Um, you mentioned also about social media just now, and there's a certain amount of branding the therapist involved in this. And I just wondered whether you think that might be pushing people to more surface level care, or is it actually creating more opportunities as well?

Dr Chris Deussing: 16:50

Both. We can think about this dialectically. Um people, many people, many people in terms of the therapeutic process. There's no right or wrong therapeutic process. Some of it is going to be symptomatology-based. And for some individuals, that's wonderful. That's what people want, symptom relief. However, I think that with AI and a lot of the content that's being generated, uh, voluminous uh content in waves, it can be overwhelming. Uh, the short form content, uh, the TikToks that we see, the various influencers can give us the impression that uh therapy is this quick fix. You come, uh you you say what's going on or your problems, what you want fixed, and then the therapist provides these techniques, these technologies to solve them. That's dangerous because um therapy can deepen into an extremely profound process uh that transforms people, transforms who they are, um helps people not replicate their pasts into their present and their future. Uh so something to even concretize that a little bit. A lot of the work, longer-term work that I do with clients, clients that I've seen for many years, goes along this dialectic of we come from our parents, and through a lot of hard work, uh we are not our parents. We're able to kind of individuate. However, without that work, we replicate those intergenerational patterns and depth psychology, depth-oriented, insight-oriented therapies that are integrated with behavioral therapies, those third-wave behavioral therapies, these more contemporary models, can provide a really powerful um therapy that goes both symptomatology, symptom mitigation and deep as well. And always coming back, and this is what I've learned in this stage of my career, in general, Andrew, it comes back to the existential realm. It comes back to those big questions of who are we as human beings, both as myself, as at the micro level and at the meso level, in terms of uh the ecosystems around me, and then getting to the real meta-levels in terms of society, the world, culture. And therapy can include all of those realms. And that's a voice that I feel like isn't being fed enough to people, because honestly, that's something that it's really difficult to capture that in short form content. Um, and at this point in marketing and branding, I'm sure you know this. It's all about uh you have five seconds to really capture a person's attention, which that's a whole nother topic in terms of this epidemic of inattention that we currently have going on.

Dr Andrew Greenland: 19:56

And it may be even fewer than five seconds, but yeah, take your point.

Dr Chris Deussing: 20:00

Right.

Dr Andrew Greenland: 20:00

So I think on a previous conversation that we had, you mentioned something that really intrigued me, and that's this idea of vertical um psychology and how clinical models have flattened transcendence. Can you unpack that a little bit for us and our um listeners and how you're working to bring the that dimension back?

Dr Chris Deussing: 20:17

Sure. Again, I have to give credence to Dr. Samuel Satillas. This is his um uh concept concept. Um I actually would like to turn this back to technology a little bit in terms of algorithmic um in terms of algorithm algorithm uh excuse me, in terms of algorithmic setups. So algorithms are reductionistic equations, they're meant to reduce, they're meant to flatten, really, uh in terms of understanding and trying to break down um uh an individual, if we're to take a human being, really breaking them down and reducing them in terms of patterns and pattern recognition. So I feel that we are living in a time that's driven by algorithms, right? And so an example I like to use of this to try and conceptualize this is a Rubik's Cube. So you have an unsolved Rubik's cube, which has 64 quintillion possibilities. That's the human being. Uh, that's Andrew Greenland right here, an unsolved Rubik's cube in all its color and glory. Now, what algorithms do is they run that Rubik's cube through a descending order to solve it. And you have this cube at the end that's beautiful, it's solved and it's homogenized, it's like everything else. So, with algorithms, they tend to flatten things and also to really center us in the here and now in terms of what is on our screen before us, uh, mainly what's in our phones. I like to say, in many ways, the new form of prayer is people bowing down to their phones. So when we're looking into our phone, we're in that world, we're disconnected. I am not looking at you, I am not connecting with you, making eye contact, interacting with the world around me, right? So it becomes flattened into that phone and everything that's being fed to you. Now, in terms of the vertical realm, really, I think it can be summarized in terms of look up. So, not just looking straight in before us, right? Like, what are my problems in my life? Uh, what are my problems with uh my job or family or whatever brings clients to our door? In many ways, if we look up, we can be like, oh wow, there's so much around us and above us, and also below us. So to try and conceptualize this a little further, the vertical is depth-oriented, right? But not just looking within, it's looking above ourselves. Now, for some person, if that's a religious paradigm to follow or a religious tradition, that's the access point. For others, it can be a psychedelic medicine experience. Whatever can bring transcendence and awe, this comes also too from another colleague, Dr. Kirk Schneider, uh, in terms of all-inspired living. Whatever we can do to reinstill that brings us into that vertical dimension, which then can feed into the ability to know that there's so much beyond ourselves. A lot of times, the source of mental illness is contraction into oneself, the loss of disconnection with others, with the world, with their meaning and purpose, and reconnecting and turning outward and expanding into the world, expanding into the horizontal axis and the vertical axis is uh where I feel like we need to go in many ways, in addition to being helped out with our traditional tools such as medications, um, psychotherapy as usual, etc. etc.

Dr Andrew Greenland: 23:52

Thank you. And I love the Rubik Cube analogy. I think that's brilliant. Thank you for that. Um so let's talk about behind the scenes of running your practice because it is a business at the end of the day as well. Just curious to know what's working particularly well for you right now. And is there anything that you focus on in terms of metrics to kind of keep an eye on things?

Dr Chris Deussing: 24:08

Well, uh, in terms of having a team, that's that's the biggest thing. And uh having uh great administrative support, I think that's very important. Uh I think a lot of private practice owners can get caught up in I have to do everything by myself. So needing to outsource and trusting individuals who have worked with me after gaining my trust to really run with it. I like to operate a practice that lets clinicians be who they are without micromanaging. And then providing people, I found that if we provide people with the tools and the relationships, I guess that's really when I want to what I want to stress, the relationships uh in a team. As long as those are robust and open with communication, I almost find that the outcomes come with the process. Uh so in terms of indicators and metrics, uh, we keep an eye on our census, our outgoing and incoming. We're also aware, though, of uh the seasonal aspects of this um of private practice as well. And what I mean by that is it ebbs and it flows, and also too, being aware of optimal growth versus kind of malignant growth. Because again, a lot of uh practices get focused on we really need to scale and we really need to build. I even think you're seeing this in some of the tech space as well, the tech therapy spaces as well, where people scaled real quickly. However, it wasn't done mindfully and then it collapses in upon itself. Uh so to circle back to that is a big advantage of a boutique practice uh in terms of being able to mindfully grow and grow in a way that's very authentic uh to ourselves as a team and also to myself as an individual.

Dr Andrew Greenland: 25:58

Thank you. And on the other side of the coin, is there anything that's um particularly challenging in your work right now? Any frustrations, bottlenecks, or things that for you are a time drain or resource heavy?

Dr Chris Deussing: 26:13

I have to be very mindful of my time. Uh I and so in terms of since I've started being more of an online presence and trying to create content, I get so much noise, uh, people wanting uh to talk to me, uh, people wanting almost a piece of me, if we want to make it like that. And in the beginning, I was very accommodating. I I would say I would take everything on. And I wondered why I was so exhausted. So I've actually had to learn to say no uh and make that my favorite word um in in many ways. Uh, and also too, even sometimes saying maybe and taking a day to think about it and evaluate in terms of is this contributing to my soul? I keep coming back to that work, uh, that word, soul. Uh is this something that contributes to who I am? Does this feed my frequency? And if it doesn't, then it has to go. And it has to go with conviction, uh, because everything that we're hand uh that we're holding on to as a maybe pulls, stretches ourselves away from really focusing and honing in on what's important to us. Um, in terms of bottlenecks, really the bottleneck I would say is is trying to get people in in a timely manner because there is such a demand here uh in in the United States, at least where where I'm located. So making sure to get people in a timely manner and also too being able to add a humanity to it. So not just shuffling people through, but really creating intake processes, interactive processes with prospective clients uh that are humanized and not just meant to get them in, get a diagnosis in um what I call churn and burn.

Dr Andrew Greenland: 28:06

Thank you. And if you had a magic wand and you could fix one thing in the business tomorrow, what would that be? And I'm afraid you can't have more time. You just mentioned that.

Dr Chris Deussing: 28:17

Magic wand. One thing?

Dr Andrew Greenland: 28:20

Well, you can have more than one thing, just curious to know if one thing springs to mind.

Dr Chris Deussing: 28:26

I I would like clinicians um at all levels of care to be adequately compensated, and uh not just in financial ways, but in the systems and the organizations that they work with in terms of seeing people as human beings who add value and bring their own individual gifts to the work that they do. Uh, so I would love to see that. I think that that would alleviate a lot of the burnout, existential burnout that therapists are having. There's a lot of therapists that are leaving the field, a lot of therapists who are becoming coaches. So that would be the first thing. Um, another magic wand I'd like to wave is uh it can could we become more holistic in the care that we're providing? And what I mean by that is more holistic in the way that we are thinking about care and therapy. So not just viewing therapy as techniques and manualized treatments, but thinking as therapy as an integrative paradigm of philosophy, theory, history, remembering the history of it, and um the manuals. So clinicians really realizing that instead of maybe becoming so hyper-specialized, we really need to broaden the aperture around aperture out and view things from a more holistic manner and have more holistic conversations. A lot of uh therapists are siloed in their various orientations. I like to see cross-polinization um and also not a my CBT is better than your DBT mindset. And through having those conversations and also studying other modalities outside of our own to try to understand them, particularly perhaps modalities that we have trouble with or are critical of, I think that's a path forward. I guess more inclusivity. That that's that that kind of summates it.

Dr Andrew Greenland: 30:13

Thank you. Good answer. Um, and if you were being being mindful about um mindful growth, which you just mentioned, but if you were suddenly flooded with ideal clients next week, for instance, what part of the business would break first? And don't say you.

Dr Chris Deussing: 30:28

Uh would break first. Probably uh the infrastructure. I mean, we would have being a boutique practice, we're not equipped to handle a large influx. So we would have to bring on some extra support staff uh and pretty readily in a timely manner if uh to to uh to handle that.

Dr Andrew Greenland: 30:50

Got it. And moving forward perhaps to the next year, and what's what are your plans for the next year in terms of your practice development or things that you're working on?

Dr Chris Deussing: 31:00

Yeah, things I'm working on, I am very happy with private practice and I am proud of what I've accomplished. And at the age of 50, uh, I'm looking for a little bit of a change. Uh, I'm not exactly sure what that change is going to concretize into. However, I do have some visions that have come into maturity over the past year. So very quickly, what I've started over the past year and really delved into are these academic reading groups where we meet weekly, bi-weekly, and review academic text and also uh seminal works. Like we just finished a reading group on Man Search for Meaning by Victor Frankel, uh, who um survived the Holocaust concentration camps and developed logotherapy out of that. I've actually found this is a great way to build community and really fill in uh a gap because a lot of there are reading circles, or there are uh book clubs and various things like that, but I mean really kind of sitting down and reading uh and studying with groups, not just supervision groups as well. Uh, I've also looking to get more involved with writing, uh, it takes a little bit of courage for me because I'm a bit of an introvert. So to put myself out there, uh even coming on this podcast, uh, is a bit of a revelation to myself uh in terms of that I do have a voice and I can get it out there. So having courage to write articles, uh, continue moving on in podcasts, and really developing uh the voice that I have and the wisdom that I've gained over the past few decades uh to help the younger clinicians uh not make the same mistakes and come online quicker uh than myself. So I see that as really part of my mission in addition to continuing the clinical work.

Dr Andrew Greenland: 32:46

Well, on that note, Chris, I'm glad that you did come onto this podcast because it's been such a grounded and reflective conversation. And I thank you immensely for sharing all of this. I think so many listeners are going to really resonate with your honesty around what it takes to create a practice that aligns with who you truly are. And you mentioned soul. Um, and I'm so grateful for your time this afternoon. Um, thank you very much for coming on.

Dr Chris Deussing: 33:07

Oh, thank you so much, Andrew. Happy holidays and uh to everyone listening.