Dr Andrew Greenland: 0:00

So welcome to Voices in Health and Wellness. This is the podcast where we dive deep into the insights, challenges, and breakthroughs of practitioners working at the cutting edge of holistic care. I'm your host, Dr. Andrew Greenland, a medical doctor and functional medicine advocate, and every week we bring you intimate conversations with clinicians who are rede redefining what health and healing looks like. Today's guest is someone truly refreshing in approach to therapy. Jaitesha Hansen is a licensed mental health counsellor based in Florida, and she brings a unique lens to her work, blending geek therapy, internal family systems, and neuroaffirming practices to help clients heal through identity, creativity, and connection. And so with that, Jetesha, I'd like to welcome you to the show and thank you very much for joining us today.

Jaitesha Hanson: 0:41

Thanks for having me. Awesome intro. Whenever I hear myself, I'm like, wow, that's me. That's like always a shocker.

Dr Andrew Greenland: 0:48

As long as it's all accurate, that's that's all good. Yes. Don't want to misrepresent anybody before we start. But anyway, um, so maybe we can start at the top. So for listeners who have not met you, could you give us a quick overview of your background and how you got into geek therapy?

Jaitesha Hanson: 1:02

Um, that's so easy. I've been a nerd my whole life. But to give insight on that, um, I've always felt like healing and creativity go hand in hand. And I know when I reflect in my life, I would be like, ooh, I'm gonna watch this anime show because I feel sad, or I'm gonna listen to this playlist I have for this mood. So I kind of started to build on the modalities. I then took into my future of being a therapist, which funny story, I thought I was gonna be a physical therapist. So I don't know how I went from body to mind, but here we are. Um, but then as I was taking that into account, I found this nonprofit, it's actually the geek therapy certification that I got, who has built a framework specifically on the theory of geek therapy where they tell you like affinities help build rapport. But I took that a little bit farther.

Dr Andrew Greenland: 1:53

And you've been practicing this approach since around 2018, right? Um, so what initially drew you to it? Or was it just from your personal experience that you kind of found this niche?

Jaitesha Hanson: 2:04

Um, lived experience for sure paints my whole journey just to being a therapist. And like I said, like growing up, I always was doing this unknowingly, right? Ooh, I'm really sad. I want to read Harry Potter for the rest. Like I have every single book, no, all the movies. But that was kind of my, I guess, stemming now. But before I was diagnosed, I didn't know that was one of my special interests. So it was whenever I'm sad, go get a book. I can tell you each character why they did what, but it helped me regulate, which allowed me to create frameworks today in my practice that help with masking, because I feel like a lot of high masking people get misdiagnosed because we know how to perform. And then a um regulation emotion mapping, which is basically taking people's creative hobbies and asking them, okay, why do you do this? When do you do this? How do you do this? Which is telling me interventions to use that you already feel safe with.

Dr Andrew Greenland: 2:58

Thank you. So can we get into the weeds a bit? Can you tell us what a geek therapy session actually looks like for many of those who might not have heard of this before, who are curious, want to get some kind of understanding of what's involved?

Jaitesha Hanson: 3:09

Um yeah, it looks like fun, honestly. That's the best way to put it. Because when I go into a session, I set it up and you will always see my Nintendo Switch out, my journal, my sketchbook, and then whatever book I'm reading, let it be a Kindle or like a physical format. So immediately on the first session, when a client walks in, they're like, This is different for this space. I thought it was serious. I even have a whiteboard and fidges and figurines, right? So I'm automatically introducing the safe space to bring their hobbies. What usually happens is, oh, I read books too. And I'm like, what do you read? And then they take me through their hobby, or they'll say, Oh, I love playing Roblox. And I'm like, okay, why do you play Roblox? And now I'm getting into their world, and now we're talking about trauma or even tough days while they're playing a game, which they're regulating themselves, and I get to do my job while also I can doodle and draw with them and still get my work done. So it's just a safe environment of hobbies. It doesn't have to look any certain way. I feel like it's about one, the um, the client's preference, right? Making sure they choose you for your identity. Because I'm very much a geek default. You could see me outside and I'd still be wearing like some type of geek shirt and being like, oh, I love Marvel. When's this con? Like, so make sure if you're going to be a geek therapist, you truly embody just hobbies and creativity.

Dr Andrew Greenland: 4:33

So, how do clients respond to this? So, I guess the firstly the neurodivergent ones and perhaps the non-neurodivergent ones. What does it look like for each of them and how do they kind of navigate through this?

Jaitesha Hanson: 4:43

Oh, I love that question. Um, I feel like it's not necessarily neurodivergent versus um non-neurodivergent. I like to use the term neurotypical programming because I feel like if we're thinking evolution in DNA, neurodivergence is just a part of evolution. So it's not like, oh, this is separate people. No, we're all same. It's just some of us have a different brain, which you would hope out of billions of people in the world, we all have different nooks and crannies in our brain. Um, so anybody, I work with all, it just seems that we all have the fine baseline of hobbies. So when everyone has a hobby, rather you're nultypically programmed or you're authentically neurodivergent, uh, the hobby is the baseline.

Dr Andrew Greenland: 5:29

So I guess the the geek therapy is a layer, but in terms of how do you incorporate perhaps the other more traditional layers into what you do, or is everything you do a bespoke kind of creation or model for people?

Jaitesha Hanson: 5:42

It's a framework, right? So geek therapy just gives us the language to use. Now, how you use it is on you. The way I use it is I have two assessments, right? So the regulation mapping tells me all of their creativity, all their hobbies. Then I take that and I apply theories we already know, like internal family systems or Carl Rogers, just all the things. I personally like to use internal family systems to separate everything in parts. That's the easiest one to apply to any hobby, any um creative approach that someone might like. For example, I have a client that loves the Sims, but they're also anxious and they are not good at decision making. Why not give them the sandbox tool of Sims? Allow them to create the part of themselves that wishes to be confident in decision making, then have them test it out in a game where they don't risk anything. So they will go through that. We can go through that in session, they can go through that at home, then we can journal about it, talk about it, then say, okay, how can we apply this to the real world? How do we take what you felt here, make it safe, and do it in the real world?

Dr Andrew Greenland: 6:48

And why do you think these creative approaches resonate more than traditional things like perhaps EMDR for some clients? What is it in there that's that's really kind of catching their attention?

Jaitesha Hanson: 6:59

It's not necessarily this is better. I feel like we just have to account that not everybody learns or is the same. I feel like neurodiversity is that we are not the same, where a lot of modalities are made out of rigid protocols, gives no space for somebody that might need to walk around while they're talking about deep stuff. Um, that's just like EMDR you brought up. I love EMDR, but as an autistic ADHD person, it's triggering. I also feel like you're trying to control my stimming. So, me personally, I wouldn't do that. But do I use bilateral stimulation, which is the baseline between all of those ART, um brain spotting? They're using bilateral stimulation, which can be done walking outside, which is how it was discovered. She was using her eyes, walking back and forth, and swinging her arms. Bilateral stimulation could be switching to your non-dominant hand and writing. So it's just taking things that are already there and applying them to the person and not making the person match the modality.

Dr Andrew Greenland: 7:56

And how do you market this? Because it is quite different in inverted commas in terms of it is non-traditional, I guess. But how do you market it and how do people find you for this kind of work?

Jaitesha Hanson: 8:07

Um, that's such I don't know. You got me stuck in that question. Like, I'm not the type to perform through things, so you're getting me just in the moment. Um, I'm not necessarily marketing it. I feel like if you know what you're looking for and you're tired of traditional therapy approaches, you'll find me because I know my blog, I know it offsets a lot of people because I'm taking stuff that people have gotten so comfortable with, and I'm saying, hmm, that's cool. Look at it this way. So I'll get some comments that are like, oh, are you sure? And I'm like, it's not about us, it's about the client. I'm taking modalities that you've been using for years since it was created, and I'm just saying, add a creative lens. So it's not necessarily that I'm doing something different. The only thing that I would say is different and that I am marketed for would be the fact that I do have assessments that highlight masking where I can track people's masking, and I do that in sessions, and I do have an assessment that I can take people's hobbies and interests and see how it helps them. So with those two things, it creates a niche of its own.

Dr Andrew Greenland: 9:09

And the people that do seek you out for your services, do you find that you see the full repertoire of um various conditions and challenges? Or do you find that the people that you're seeing have got a more narrow focus of things they will work with?

Jaitesha Hanson: 9:24

No. Um, I often make the joke that whenever you are in the neurodivergent lane, you have to open up yourself and it's gonna be like a cocktail baby, right? It's not just gonna be ADHD, it's not just gonna be autism, it's gonna be a bunch of things, usually all at once, and it's gonna present differently in each person. So often all my cases are complex, but because this is an area I've been in and I learn about and research, it doesn't feel like a challenge. So, no, it's not narrow. I have different clients that come in with different phobias, they all don't regulate the same. So that looks different given each person.

Dr Andrew Greenland: 10:02

And thinking about the wider world of mental health at the moment, what are you seeing in terms of trends or things that other people are doing in therapy from your perspective, and particularly when it comes to neurodivergent care?

Jaitesha Hanson: 10:15

Um, I feel like this is just the beginning of authentic care. I feel like in mental health we have been kind of conformed and regulated by the neurotypical programming in the sense of therapists don't have personalities, or we can't, you know, connect with them because it's you know ethical, you know, you're not a friend, you're not this. And it's like we're human. So I feel like people want the human approach. And it's not only I feel in my first sessions with clients, I say, why didn't you say what your last therapist? What do you want out of therapists? And every single one, no matter the age, is they just felt fake. Or they it just felt like a robot. Like, no, like you haven't cried over this before. Why are you acting? And I always tell them, I was like, good, because I I don't I'm not gonna do that. I'm gonna be the same therapist that is blunt and hold you accountable, but I'm also gonna be like, yeah, I'll wear my human hat sometimes if they want it, be like, Do you want a therapist's answer or a human answer? And then that disarms them and they're like, Oh, okay, you are a human. Okay, this helped way more. So I feel like if mental health is seen more in the geek therapy frame of saying, hey, we all have hobbies, let's meet in that space, you'll have more authentic care happening.

Dr Andrew Greenland: 11:26

Thank you. So I I think I'm hearing that the broader system is evolving a bit more towards affirming care, or do you are you thinking there are still some quite big roadblocks that need to be overcome?

Jaitesha Hanson: 11:38

There are roadblocks, but I don't feel like it's the clinicians. I just feel like it's the overall system in mental health care. Um, a lot of the branding of mental health is serious and it should be. But if you're wanting people to come in, you've got to take the shame out of mental health. And it's hard to take shame out of mental health if all the marketing is suicide, which is important, but no one wants to touch that. Like, think of it this way: I am an African-American woman, and mental health in the African-American household already has a lot of shame and guilt. It's go to the church, nothing's wrong with you. So then seeing marketing that is kind of doubling down on this shame that I already have, it's not really pushing me into therapy.

Dr Andrew Greenland: 12:23

And I think on our previous um conversation that we had, you talked a little bit about um Eastern medicine and your kind of perspective on that. Could you talk a bit more about that for us?

Jaitesha Hanson: 12:32

Yes. Um, I like to incorporate, well, baseline, I'm open-minded, but I do like to incorporate a lot of Eastern medicine and a lot of spirituality. Um, the example I used with you is I've had a lot of clients come in and they have thyroid issues. So I was like, interesting, because they're all battling the same thing of, oh, I'm not good at communicating my needs. I'm not good at boundaries or just speaking up for themselves. And when we think of where the thyroid's at, and then we apply Eastern medicine and spirituality, we are thinking throat chakra. We're thinking energetic holes in our body. And where is it in the throat, right? So when we're thinking of the suppression of that energy, it would make sense why a thyroid would then become an active or have a lot of challenges.

Dr Andrew Greenland: 13:19

And so, and what would you, somebody with a thyroid issue that you described, so how would you help them? What would be your kind of approach?

Jaitesha Hanson: 13:27

Well, for me, what I am capable of doing, I would obviously focus on the boundary setting, emotional regulation, and confidence, right? Building the person so they can speak as far as the symptoms of thyroid challenges, then I would refer them to holistic doctors. I feel like that's one of my favorite referral sources is telling people, hey, how about get different opinions? Yes, we have our Western doctors and they're amazing, but how about we add these other layers? Because I think everyone can agree that Western medicine is like, this is the problem, here's the solution. So not all the time are we looking at the full body approach, whereas Eastern medicine is like, oh, it's this, you know, it could be connected to this. And then, and I feel like we are whole individuals and it should be looked from that lens often. So we don't just band-aid one problem, but we see essentially what all is happening and the domino effect.

Dr Andrew Greenland: 14:19

Amazing. So what's um you're obviously running a clinic, which is a business. What's working well for you at the moment that you're proud of?

Jaitesha Hanson: 14:28

Um this is gonna sound very simple, but the fact that my authenticity and my ability to just show up and not look like a modern day therapist or what people assume therapists look like has been rewarding because I'm seeing more people be like, Oh, yes, like even clients are coming in being more authentic to who they are. There is a specific client that comes to mind that has been very closed, and I always feel like, Are we a turtle today? And they'll just laugh. And then after six months working with them and me just consistently just coming in, and I'll have different color hair, or I'll wear different jeans and crops, or just chilling, really in the chair talking. Um, now their whole wardrobe has shifted. They're more open, they're relaxed, right? Because they're being presented a version that maybe they've always wanted but was afraid to see. So I feel like if everybody just presents authentically as themselves and we can drop the masking and the performance, more people will actually get closer to who they are. Because I feel like that's the problem. If we think about kids, even adults, we're looking around, looking for representation, but all of us are still trapped in the neurotypical programming. Professionality looks this way, it sounds this way. I'm aware I do not always sound professional. I don't want to. That doesn't mean I don't know things, it's just I'm a part of that shift, so I can't do that.

Dr Andrew Greenland: 15:52

Authenticity is absolutely massive and so, so important. So that's really, really interesting to hear you say that as your kind of number one thing that you're proud of. What about um on the other side of the coin? Things that are challenging, bottlenecks, feels that things that feel stuck for you, either in the clinical work or the whole business of running a clinic or a business.

Jaitesha Hanson: 16:11

I feel I feel like for me, it's more so the fear of people hearing new approaches. Everyone wants to stay in line, right? Everyone wants to do something a little different, but not just be like, hey, look, this is exactly what I'm doing. So I feel like getting people to trust what I'm doing is the challenge. Or if I'm presenting on something that I have found um beneficial, I know I'm gonna have people that are like, oh no, but I just need one person to see it and believe it. And that's enough for me. I feel like for me in the beginning, I would burn out because I would present and people were just like, no, no, this is crazy, this is crazy. So I just stopped. I stopped marketing and I just focused on the things in the areas that I'm good at, um which is writing, pod going on podcasts and talking, and um showing up in my um clinic and doing my clinician work. And that in itself has given me more opportunities than me forcing people to hear me. People are now just finding me.

Dr Andrew Greenland: 17:09

What's your biggest um time drain at the moment? Is it um admin systems or is there any aspects of clinical that you don't quite enjoy as much?

Jaitesha Hanson: 17:18

Notes. Notes will always be my downfall. Um, ADHD notes at that is just like forget one note's open, gotta close another. So that takes up most of my time. That's where I'm like, if we can just have a better note system, more regulated. Like you guys are trying to regulate everything, but take off the load that actually um affects us. Because now we don't get to go home and do our self-care that we need. We're doing three more hours after seeing six to seven people in a day of just notes.

Dr Andrew Greenland: 17:50

I think on a call, on our last call, you talked a bit about the alchemist lab. Am I right? Tell us a bit about that and what you're looking for that to kind of achieve over the next six to twelve months.

Jaitesha Hanson: 18:00

So the Alchemist Lab, um, it's going to be trainings, it's going to be where I present my frameworks, it's going to be where my CEUs are hosted as well. It is bringing people into the lab. I like to say I'm a mad scientist. I use that all the time. And using that as the baseline, I'm going to invite other clinicians, no matter where they're at in the healthcare field, and give them ways to do neuroaffirming care. Again, a lot of the modalities we have, they're rigid. So when everybody's going through, because everyone has to do like their clinical portion of um, I don't know, I feel like everyone learns therapist skills no matter what healthcare, because it's like basic customer service almost. So a doctor has to go through and do those classes and then all these things to know how to do active listening. How do you talk through challenging moments? So it's like if we're already teaching that in the education system, why not make it neuroaffirming? So now maybe a doctor is like, oh, I have this client that's coming in for something and I know they're really anxious about it. Oh, let me have some figurines. I know they talked about a couple days ago in here to make them comfortable. Let me present fidges. Oh, you can bring a book while we're sitting here doing that, right? So I want to present a more mad scientist look on just healthcare and being helpful for everyone. So no one has to mask.

Dr Andrew Greenland: 19:20

Brilliant. Now, if you had a magic wand and you could fix one thing in your clinic business overnight, what would that be?

Jaitesha Hanson: 19:31

I'm like, will I get cancelled for this? Um, insurance contracts and rates.

Dr Andrew Greenland: 19:37

No, that's fair. That's fair. I mean, I have conversations with a lot of people in North America, and the insurance thing comes up almost all of the time in some shape or form.

Jaitesha Hanson: 19:46

Yeah.

Dr Andrew Greenland: 19:46

What's the bottleneck for you with the insurance thing? Because I obviously it's slightly different in the UK. We don't have the same model, so it's useful to understand what it is that's which what it is that grates on you.

Jaitesha Hanson: 19:58

For me, it's It's not consistent and it varies from state to state. Not only that, cost of living here, I feel everyone knows, does not match the demands of what life is really giving us right now. So it's trying to find the numbers of how much is good enough for the business to be sustained, but not hurting our clients' pockets because we want them to come. Then we have to think about since we have so many different insurances, one rate could be $75 an hour, then the other rate could be $130 an hour. But you have more people that have the 75, you want to keep them because that $130 might be like a handful of people, right? So you can't really bargain unless you're a big company. So your big companies and we're nationwide, oh, they're gonna get the great contracts. But for the smaller businesses, it's a fight.

Dr Andrew Greenland: 20:52

If you were starting from scratch again tomorrow, would you do anything differently in the way that you've built up what you've um created?

Jaitesha Hanson: 21:01

Honestly, if you asked this like last year before I just did deep healing, I would say yes. I would redo a lot of things. Um, but now that I understand and I live by the metaphor, I guess, that everything's by design. I've been able to look at every decision I've made and understand it, even if it did hurt me. And I'm like, wait, I learned so much. Okay, yes, I get it now. So now I'm taking all these um failures and I've learned from them and I'm able to apply them now, and they're more successful just because I don't see them as shame, but I see them as my growth opportunity.

Dr Andrew Greenland: 21:36

Okay. And and if you had 15 year inquiries next week, what would happen? Would any any part of your system clinic break? Hopefully not you, but what would happen with a massive surge of inquiries? Nice problem to have for some people, but it doesn't always work that way.

Jaitesha Hanson: 21:53

Um I would see it in many ways. One, obviously, I would only take on what I can. I understand that part of it, but it would tell me that people are ready for a shift and are interested in lease and what I am trying to bring to the mental health table. So I would not be mad about it. It would just tell me, like, hey, people do want this, and that's good enough for me.

Dr Andrew Greenland: 22:15

Brilliant. With that, Jesus, I'd like to thank you so much for joining us today. It's been such an honest and creative conversation. Really good to hear about geek therapy. Something I'll be honest with you, I heard nothing about until you've been speaking about it on this podcast. I think your work is a true gift to the space. So thank you so much for joining us today.

Jaitesha Hanson: 22:32

Yeah, and thank you for having me.

Dr Andrew Greenland: 22:34

You're welcome.