Dr Andrew Greenland: 0:00

So, welcome to Voices in Health and Wellness. This is the show where we bring together clinicians, coaches, and change makers from across the health space to explore what's working, what's shifting, and what it really takes to build sustainable care. I'm your host, Dr. Andrew Greenland, an NHS doctor and functional medicine practitioner, and today's conversation is one I've been especially looking forward to. We're joined by Anele Griessel, an occupational therapy consultant with more than 25 years of experience. Based in Warwick, UK, Annelle offers now works primarily with neurodivergent teens and adults, supporting them with body-based sensory-informed interventions that help regulate stress and build resilience, all grounded in the belief that healing starts when we choose joy. So, Anele, with that, I'd like to welcome you to the show and thank you very much for joining us today.

Anele Griessel: 0:44

Well, thank you very much, Andrew. It's a privilege to be here.

Dr Andrew Greenland: 0:48

Thank you. So, would you mind starting perhaps telling us a little bit about your journey into OT? What drove what drew you towards sensory work specifically? And perhaps you better start by telling everybody what OT is for those that are unishated.

Anele Griessel: 1:02

Yeah, no, I'll do my best. Um, yes, occupational therapy is a health profession, it's very much grounded both in I think uh psychology as well as in um neuroscience, and there's also a lot of medical uh side to it as well, and through that, our focus is on what we call occupation. Um and occupation is basically everything that we do. So when I meet someone, it's about exploring what are the issues in their life and the kind of different roles that they have to kind of fulfill and all of the bits that they have to do in everyday life, and then you're looking at the medical side, you're looking at the mental health side, and you're looking at what is stopping them, and then you make a plan together. Um, and sometimes that's compensatory, sometimes it's about strategies. So that's basically what an occupational therapist does. We work in all sorts of settings, we work with adults, with older people, with young, younger children as well. And um, my journey into OT, um, I really wanted to go and study drama. And the only course that I could find that had an element of drama was occupational therapy. And a very wise person at school said, Well, you look as if you could do it. Why don't you apply? So I applied um in South Africa and I started my journey a long time ago. Um, but I've loved it every single minute since I started it. It was absolutely the best decision, and I got so many experiences in South Africa. They throw you into practicals right from the start. So we it was a very turbulent time in South Africa at the time, it was just as the country was moving from apartheid um into what the country is now, and so there was a lot of change, and um, we had to go and work in very rural areas some days, and um you know sometimes it was quite extreme, but I think it helps to form you as an occupational therapist, and then I came to the UK and I started to work here, and I've been so blessed working in the UK, and um my journey with working with children and young people started in the 2000s. Um, but as I say, my interest in sensory integration probably grew from then because I realized that uh there's this part of um of our brains, of the way that we perceive our environment and then how we react to it, and that has a very, very significant impact on how we are and um how we do things and how we connect with other people. So, my journey just you know, I I started to study it more and more and more, and I think it's been in recent years, probably the last five years, that the whole kind of I think well, probably started in COVID, maybe a little bit before that, is when we when I started to kind of look at the impact of stress and how our sensory receptors um receive those stress signals from the environment. And um I felt that occupational therapy with all of my colleagues um that that's something that's a really well-placed um occupation and and that we can help people um through it. So so that's really where it started. But I I absolutely love what I do. I I enjoy working with people, and um and I get to play. That's the other bonus on a daily basis.

Dr Andrew Greenland: 4:42

Lovely, thank you for sharing the journey. Always love to hear how people have ended up doing what they do. Great. So I think you mentioned that your work is about choosing joy. Um what does that mean to you and how does it show up in your clinical work?

Anele Griessel: 4:55

Yeah, so uh uh Desmond Tutu is um one of my absolute heroes, and I felt that the way that he navigated not just the transition in South Africa but also his own uh kind of perceived and how he journeyed through his own illness was such a testament. And I came across the Book of Joy, was a beautiful book that he did with the Dalai Lama, and in that I first realized that joy is not the same as happiness, and I also realized that you choose joy, so joy is an absolute choice that even in adverse circumstances, you know, joy is always there and it's underlying, and you can choose it. And it doesn't mean that life doesn't get hard, it doesn't mean that you never get overwhelmed, but intrinsically there's a choice that you can make, and that's really what what changed things for me in a personal way, but also in the work that I do, is so I I try and instill that that happiness is a feeling. Joy goes much deeper, and joy is a choice that we make, but it's also something that when we nurture our sensory system, is something that we can enhance and we can help thrive our um our sense of joy, and through joy we build resilience, and resilience is really one of those absolute key factors that um that that helps us to get through difficult times and it helps us to get through um you know times when we think, How on earth am I going to do this? And sometimes it's about taking very, very small steps and literally going, Well, for today I have three balls of energy, and how am I going to use it? And communicating to the people around you that you know, I've only got three balls of energy today, or some people talk about the spoon theory, but um, I I just visualize balls better. Um so um, and and and what what that means is that when you communicate that, I found that with my children that sometimes if I communicate to them and say, you know, today is a low energy day, um, let's let's see how we're going to do this, but let's finish with joy and let's see that we can really instill that. And what is what are the choices that we're going to make to make today joyful? And I feel that anti-teeth thesis to kind of stress is always thinking about being playful, is how can we enhance the day through a playful approach? So that's really instilled a lot of what I do and and and what I believe in. I I absolutely believe in choosing joy.

Dr Andrew Greenland: 7:45

Amazing. Look, you've worked in so many contacts and contexts over the last 25 plus years. What shifted most in how you approach care today?

Anele Griessel: 7:56

I think what shifted for me was the amazing people that I've met professionally in my work, the clients, the families that I've worked with so far and on and on an ongoing basis. And I think one of the most profound things was to look at the family as a system, um, and that it's not just the child that I'm working with, but it's really looking at the whole family and looking at the dynamics within that, and then also looking at the young people that I work with, you know, they teach you so much. Um, a lot of the young teenagers now, we know that there's an epidemic of mental health problems in our young people, and I feel by listening to what they bring, by really understanding and going to sit with them, sometimes I don't have the answers. But when I'm honest about that and we can sit together and we can work out some very, very small things that we can change just for today, just for now, just for the next half hour, you know, we can very we can make small changes, but they've really inspired me. You know, I've I've worked with I would say more than a thousand families by now, and they've been really, really inspirational. And apart from that, I think growing up in South Africa and seeing the change happening there, seeing the the hardship that people have, and and some people don't have privileges of proper houses, and still, you know, when you go into those we call them shanty towns, there's an element of there's an underlying sense of joy, there's an underlying sense of we can get through this, um, which I don't think is some is is often talked about because I know South Africa they do have a there's a bad name, you know, there is the and and I don't deny that there is a lot of stuff happening in South Africa that's scary, that's hard, um, you know, people get hurt. Um, but despite that, there is a as I say, there's a sense of joy and there's a sense of um resilience that's just incredible. And I think those two aspects have really inspired me to to move away slightly of the traditional occupational therapy work that I do and and really focus on how I can support people in understanding their own sensory systems, and then through that, let's see how we can put in some strategies where their sensory system can be nurtured. And people like Stephen Porges, um Basil van der Kook, um these are people that I've fairly recently come across, probably in the last 10 years, but the work that they do around trauma and that the you know the body keeps the score, um, but also the sense that what is safety? What does that mean? And what are the things that we need to in the first instance create? We need that sense of safety, and I think healing happens when we're safe, um, and and it's about you know explaining that to parents, it's about explaining that to the person that I work with, is what are the things that we can make life safer for you? Um, and then from a place of safety, you we look at connection, we also look um at, as I say, playfulness, nurturing our sensory systems, and through that, very, very slowly, you can you can start to build small actions, and small actions you know lead to um routines, and that eventually leads to habits, and then slowly, slowly you build that resilience. And through that, it is um a joy to really see how people then rediscover choosing joy and and how they thrive going forward and and are more productive and um feel that that life is something that's not just hard, it is something that's there to be enjoyed.

Dr Andrew Greenland: 11:58

Thank you, really interesting. But you're you're now working mostly with uh neurodivergent teens and adults. What are the key themes or challenges that come up most often for that um demographic?

Anele Griessel: 12:10

I think um anxiety, yeah, I would say is probably one of the single most things that I come across. Um, and that goes across all the neurodivergencies. And I, you know, I think because I think when we think about neurodiversity, sometimes we we focus on autism, and it's not just autism, there's the ADHD, there's um dyspraxia. So dyspraxia is something that I come across a lot, is where someone really struggles to plan their motor actions, to sequence, to organize themselves, and life just feels like a mess. Um, but anxiety is absolutely the number one um difficulty that I that I feel are um felt, that feel of not belonging, of being out of sync with the world around them, and that brings stress um and that brings a worry because it's it's it they are they that a lot of people will say they are that typical, you know, kind of square pig in a in a round hole, and um, and that's that is very, very difficult is to to bring that sense of you know, you're a person, and what are the things that we can start to put in place, and again, when I think you know, sometimes when we talk about overwhelm, that sense that that comes with anxiety, um, and that sense of overwhelm, that life is just too much, there's just too much going on, there's too much input that I have to deal with on a daily basis, and all of those um sensory experiences that I'm having to deal with, the demands being placed on me, I just cannot do that because we know that, especially in our autism population, a lot of them feel that they can only focus on one thing at a time, and when there is so many demands coming from different angles, it just becomes too much. So, one of the things that I really am passionate about is to reduce overwhelm, and one of the ways to do that is to bring in um notice, you know, but notice in with intent. So the way that we go about that is in the first place, it's like a circuit breaker, you know, we need to kind of stop. There's cognitive feeling of overload, there's emotional feeling of overload, um, and we need to bring a stop in. And when we stop, we breathe and then we notice. And the way that we notice, um, I I really enjoy very silly prompts. So I will sometimes give people a little homework and I'll say to them, for today, when you when you walk from the bus station into work, I want you to notice everything that's red, I want you to notice everything that's rough, I want you to notice um, you know, smelling, I want you to smell something that you've never smelled before. Can you identify that? So it's small prompts of noticing because, but it's with intent, because that brings um attention to to noticing, and I think um people use mindfulness a lot, and I think there's a lot, you know, mindfulness is something that's very widely known, but I think if we break mindfulness down, in its essence, it's about noticing, it's about being present. Um, but I think some people people do need help, and I need, you know, I need help with that as well because sometimes life just whirls around. But it's when you can actually help someone to do that stop, do the breath, and then notice that you circuit break some of that feeling of overwhelm, and then you can start to bring in some of those strategies that that have been very, very difficult to acquire.

Dr Andrew Greenland: 16:03

Really interesting. Um, so you've been talking a lot about sensory first approaches. Um, I'm just really curious to know why these are a game changer for clients compared to perhaps more traditional talk-based support, because perhaps some of what you've mentioned is not familiar to a lot of our listeners, and I just want to get that kind of distinction between what you do and traditional talk-based therapy and why the sensory-based thing is more, in your eyes, more effective.

Anele Griessel: 16:27

Yes. Well, as I say, one of one of the people that I've been um that I've come across and have done some further reading on is um Basil van der Kolken. When he talks about trauma in a in a in a in a big sense, but what he's one he's written a book, The Body Keeps the Score. And what I've realized, and and we know that the neuroscience says talks about that, is that when we are in a state of overwhelm, our our thinking part of our brains simply stop working, they go into shutdown. Because the body is all about regulation. Our body all day long wants to know that our blood sugars are okay, our heart rate is okay from a medical sense, you know. But then there's also the sense that the input that we're receiving, we talk about and in occupational, well, not just in occupational therapy, but there's a term called neurosception. Now, I don't know where neurosception sits in the body because I think it's a term that people have um have started to kind of use, but neurosception is really like a big satellite dish, is how I understand it anyway. It's a big satellite dish in our kind of nervous system, and what it does, it it asks the question is this safe or is this unsafe? So, with any sensory input, when I talk about sensory input, it's the things that we hear, it's the things that we see, the things that we feel on a daily basis. The first thing that our brain does, and that's at a very low, low level, it's down at the brainstem, if we want to kind of look at where in the brain that is, there's um the the brain will ask, is this safe or is this unsafe? It's almost like a gatekeeper, and that's the beginning. So if it's safe, the message will pass through to be processed, and our brain will try and make sense of it. And then there's your different sensory systems that their messages will go to. So it will go to the, you know, if if we've seen something, it will go to the visual systems, or it will go to the auditory systems, or to the if it's something inside our body, it's it will go to this to the system where interoception is processed. So that tells you all about what's happening inside your body. Are you hungry? You know, um, do you do you need to go to the loo? All of those aspects are are to do with what's happening inside our body. So that information then gets processed, and you start, and the brain then starts to okay. So, what is going on here? What's the discrimination that has that starts to happen? You know, um, is this regulating? So, is this going to make me feel um overwhelmed? Is this going to make me feel um sleepy? Is this going to make me feel I want more of this? Um, that's that's the regulation part, and then it's it it also looks at discriminating. So, what is this? What is this thing that I'm looking at? You know, um, is it a lamp? Oh no, no, it's not a lamp, it's it's something else. Oh, oh, I see what it is. It's um, I don't know, uh a box. Um, you know, your brain starts to kind of discriminate, so you it brings meaning to to what it is, and then you can have a response um to what it is. Oh, okay, goodness, thank goodness. It's not it's not something that's gonna hurt me, it's just The lamp, I'm going to switch it on because I need a little bit more light. Um, so there's all sorts of things that happen within the sensory system, and it happens very quickly. But and I apologize, I've kind of gone off on a tangent here. But the reason why talking therapies don't always work is because when we talk, it's a higher level of function that our brain needs to interpret, and that's often kind of much more. We we have different layers in the brain, and um, our decision-making part of our brain, the brain that the the part that interprets language and makes sense of that and can process that language into doable action. So if we think about executive functioning, that shuts down when the body is in stress and the the body feels that this is not safe or that this is overwhelming. And then we need a different approach, we need a body-based approach, we need things I know you know a lot of people find yoga um comforting, and and they find that those body-based, you know, or go for a run. Some people find movement really um helps them to process kind of um things that have been been been difficult for them to um to make sense of, or something that has been traumatic or stressful, they find by doing something makes makes reduces that stress, and that's what we're trying to do in sensory integration. We're looking at what are those body-based approaches, what is it that this person is their preference, what is the sense that really works well for them when they when they are stressed? How can we reduce it? How which strategies can we use? And sometimes it is very active, and it's about the person using coming up with their own um solutions and you just guiding them through that. That is definitely by far the most effective way to do it.

Dr Andrew Greenland: 22:01

Thank you. So um I think when we talked before, you were talking about a sensory journal that you're turning into a mobile app. Um, would you mind just talking a little bit about that and what what is it going to help people to uncover?

Anele Griessel: 22:12

Yeah, um, I'm very excited about that because we're going to we're looking at it in two stages for the app to do two things. In the first place, it is about prompts that'll help people on a daily basis to record notice with intent. So there will be a prompt. So for today, so for today, we we um we invite you to notice something, you know, a prompt that we will provide, and they can do that with a photo and they can record um also what it is. Um, so there's no judgment there, there's not we're going not going to over-analyze that part, it's simply noticing and getting into that habit and routine of noticing with intent. And then the second part of the app, which I'm very excited about, is about looking at your own sensory preferences. And um, we've got different ways that we're trying to do that because not everybody likes to complete questionnaires, so we um are looking at a puzzle that people can put together, um, and that that will then provide people with information about their their specific sensory profile. So, sensory profile, you we can kind of look at that into roughly four quadrants where people are either sensory seeking, so they they look, they need a lot of sensory information. So, I took I often talk about the um uh you know cups. Some people have really massive, big, star, kind of big cups that need a lot of filling of sensory input, um, and and they will often be seeking and adrenaline seeking more input. Other people may have a very small cup, and that cup gets full very easily, so they may be more sensitive to sensory information. Other people may arrive with a cup that's already full, um, and they will try and avoid any more sensory demands being placed on them. And then they are people whose cup is simply so big that they really struggle to register sensory information. So we're hoping that through the app, people will start to kind of look at their own sensory preferences, their own sensory profile, and then through the app, we will we aim to guide people through that journey to kind of come up with strategies to enhance life in all areas because occupational therapy is absolutely about occupations, it's about what we do. So, in the mornings going to work, are you someone who needs a coffee, a strong coffee beforehand, or do you need a very gentle wake-up call instead? Um, you know, and going through the day, we know that our alertness levels go up and down. How can we really nurture um um and and bring in some interesting ways to make life joyful, um, but to keep our overwhelm under under wraps, really, and and and well not really under how under wraps, um, but really deal with it in a way um that brings resilience? So I'm very excited about the app that's um in with very, very clever people at the moment. Um, I can just talk about it, but they know they know how to put it all together.

Dr Andrew Greenland: 25:33

Okay, well, it's really something to be looking out for, and I hope it all goes well. Um, so you've done a lot of expert witness work as well as your clinical work. How has that sharpened or changed your clinical approach in doing that kind of um specialist detailed work?

Anele Griessel: 25:48

Yes. Um, I someone said to me, I'm very forensic in my approaches, and um and I think being South African, I don't want to kind of do a too broad brush, but I think for me, um as a South African, but also um being English is my second language, I've always said in big team meetings that I simply don't have the finesse um of lots of English vocabulary to to be very gentle and to talk around a problem. I go straight in and um and and from what I see I will analyse it and I will I will give the message in a very clear and very simple way. Um, so I think those two things have really informed my expert witness work, which requires you to really analyse and and look at the holistic setting. So you look at the person, you look at the environment that they're in, you look at the task demands that they have to fulfill. And a lot of my expert work is to do with children, so it's looking at them within the school environment. What are the things that are really that they really struggle with? So I'm very privileged because I I get to meet lots of amazing young people, I get to go into lots of different school environments, and I can be very privileged to sit to be a fly on the wall and to focus on one child, which is not something that teachers often get um the privilege of. And I can look at that child and I can look at how the environment, how just looking at how they behave, how the environment influences what they do, and um, and then you know, through structured assessments, you can then build a picture for this person and what is really difficult for them and what are the challenges for them, and then communicating that within um an expert witness situation. So I I feel um I've been very blessed in my in that journey, and I think it's really sharpened the way that I notice, notice and analyse um information.

Dr Andrew Greenland: 28:06

Thank you. Um, burnout is a huge conversation in healthcare. I just wonder what you've observed perhaps in yourself or in terms of things that you do to protect yourself, or what you've noticed in the peers that you work with from a burnout perspective.

Anele Griessel: 28:20

Yeah, absolutely. Um, you know, we we know that life is fast. And I feel from I I don't think our bodies have been designed to keep up with the pace of life. Our bodies develop much slower and they need a lot more time. But I I think it's an American term, hustle, you know. We are we are almost programmed to hustle, we program to kind of go, go, go, go and be productive, and we have to, you know, our children have to attend five days worth of clubs, sometimes six, seven, because that's what we do. We need to be busy. But there's a lot of demands being placed on us, and I think technology has been very it's been amazing, you know, technology, the the advances that's been made on different levels. But what it has meant for our human brains and our human bodies is that we don't have time to switch off because technology is with us all day, 24-7 hours, you know. Um, and and I I I think lots of people will agree with me nowadays, you know, an email comes in, you respond to it after hours because you've you've noticed it, and our body is designed to kind of deal with things, so you deal with it, and there's never time to to stop, which you know, 30-40 years ago you um that that was possible. You went to work, you came home, there was television, but the television had had an off-switch. It wasn't that bombardment of technology, it wasn't bombardment of demands. Um, and in terms of burnout, it's it's difficult. It's it's difficult because I don't think we always recognize the signs of burnout because life has been so busy and so fast that our um our receptors of noticing has been blunted. And that's one of the that that's one of the reasons why um I am on this mission to help people to to slow down, to notice, and to just stop in the moment. I'm not saying you know, you you you don't always need half an hour to stop, sometimes it's a five-second stop, but in that stop we breathe and we notice. Um, and I and I think in terms of burnout for myself, how how I've tried to protect myself, how I protect the people that I work with, the team that I work with, is that we have fun. Is we are purposely um looking at what fun can we bring into the day, what playfulness can we bring into the day. Um, I've I I think it's been a wonderful woman, um, Aidine Brechner, she's um Irish, and she she was the one who taught me. Um, she's an occupational therapist who works a lot with the children um who've been adopted. And what she's always said is that playfulness is is the way that you counter stress. And um I've tried it out, and absolutely, you know, when you can when you can, it doesn't always have to be a big um playfulness, but it's it's again it's finding moments where you can stop, where you can slow down, and then where you can bring in some fun, fun aspect to the day. You know, sometimes it's really something very, very silly. It's um if sometimes and my kids think I'm absolutely loony, but even now they are now at university, so when they come home, I will still decorate their plates, I will make a funny face on their plates with the food when I put it out, and they go, Oh mum, but it does bring a smile, and it's something unexpected. Um, so that's one of the things, you know, it's it's something very small. Um, but that's how I try and protect myself, that's how I try to protect the people that I come in contact with um to burn out because burnout is absolutely real, but it's about also slowing down and giving yourself permission to rest. That's one thing that we find in in occupational therapy. The the permission to rest, but sleep, and um, it doesn't always, you know, rest has got many forms. It doesn't, it's not always just about sleep, but it it's also an occupation that's been recognized now is that we need rest, our bodies need rest, we need that switch off um to to to survive and to thrive.

Dr Andrew Greenland: 33:06

Thank you. Love the loves a smiley plate thing. I'm gonna remember that. Thank you. So obviously, your consultancy, your OT consultancy work and you do expert witness work, you are running businesses, and I'm just curious to know from a business point of view what's going particularly well for you at the moment in those different aspects of what you do.

Anele Griessel: 33:25

Um, I'm someone who likes novelty. Um, I think when I'm doing the same thing, same thing day in, day out, um, that is when my energy levels drop. So I'm always looking at new new ways, new things that we can do. And I think we're in a very, very exciting time. Um in every aspect, you know, in the work that I do, there's a lot of interesting things that's happening. I think there's a recognition that body-based um approaches are needed, it's necessary, and sometimes you need that body-based approach before a talking therapy happens, and that the they work in conjunction with each other, you know, and that medicine isn't always the first the first thing to reach for, there are other things that we need to do. In the first instance, I think there's um uh something that's very exciting is looking at how we can help people to connect better, how we can help them connect better with themselves, help them to connect better with other people. Um, and I think there's you know, we we know that loneliness is something that's a big theme at the moment, but I think in all of these it's looking at the opportunity. Um, so for me, it's I'm I I work with a fantastic group of people, there's 10 amazing women that I work with. Um, and what we are seeing is about how can we bolster, how how can we how can we really work with families and and how can we help them as a as a family unit to be stronger and to um be more resilient. So sometimes it's about looking at every person in the family's sensory profile and then helping each of them to recognize that not all everybody in this family is the same, and also so giving space, being tolerant, but also how can I help to um to nurture the other person's um sensory system? What can I do and what can they do for me? Um, and and those are very exciting. I'm very excited about that, and also reaching out, you know, there's a in occupational therapy, there's been a big shift and children's services, um, there's a lot of private practices starting, and there's a lot of funding that's starting to come available from from charities, which is excellent, you know, and it's very exciting, and it leaves us slightly freer to look at what is the actual need of this child, and sometimes we can take a little bit more time to to work within the family on some of the difficulties. So there's lots of exciting things happening in in among all the big umbrella conversations that's happening um in the world.

Dr Andrew Greenland: 36:22

And on the other side of the coin, what are some of the challenges or bottlenecks in running what you do as businesses? Um, and is there anything you've had to particularly work on or overcome recently to you know be more successful or to achieve your aims?

Anele Griessel: 36:38

There's quite a lot of bottlenecks, and there's quite a lot of challenges. Um sometimes funding is uh is a big challenge. Um for me, as I say, you know, within the NHS, they are there are constraints. The people, my colleagues have to work within commissioning services, that's uh an incredible difficulty. People are being extremely creative in how they do that. So, what we're finding is that people in the NHS, my colleagues, I'll just start. I just want to kind of bring that in because I have so much admiration for what's happening. Um, people are using video teaching to really get that message out to parents, um, especially in the NHS, and I'm very excited about what we're seeing. So there's a lot more teaching happening and teaching being made available for um for individuals and families to learn more about the neuroscience between some of the behaviors, um, and and that's really really exciting for for me personally. The challenge is that there's never enough time, and and and what we want, um, sometimes that there's there's there's not enough time for this child. The the children and families that we sometimes work with, and the adults that I sometimes that that come to me are in crisis point. So working with them takes a lot of time, it takes, you know, but you need a team, you need that whole village around you, and sometimes that village isn't available. And it's then that to me is one of the biggest challenges is how can I, within the scope of my own practice, um, with the time available that I have, how can I maximize um the opportunity to work with with the person, um, and and how can I really help them with my limited knowledge and skills um to thrive. Um, that's that's really difficult, and and that's that's very, very hard. And then as I say, um there's the usual things about in terms of business, there's we know it's um at the moment we we are in that kind of January phase where it's end of year accounts, and accounting is definitely I'm an OT, I really accounting is definitely not, you know. So the business aspects of it, making sure that we are compliant, making sure that we are safe in what we do, putting those um those strategies in in place, you know, the bureaucracy of running a business is something that I find really, really challenging. Um, and it's sometimes you have there's it's it's my dad has this. We grew up with that. My dad would always say, you know, is this something that you really need? Is it beneficial or is it a want that you want whenever we went to and say, Dad, I need a new top? Those three questions have stayed with me. And I think with in in terms of bureaucracy, in terms of the things that a business needs to work and for a business to be sustainable, those are the three questions that I ask myself. You know, with this piece of paperwork, this kind of another policy, is there something that's necessary? Will it be beneficial? Or is it just something that someone wants me to do? And I think that helps me to prioritize through the bureaucratic kind of maze that I sometimes have to kind of fight my way through because it's not my favorite thing.

Dr Andrew Greenland: 40:14

Sure. I mean you mentioned limited time there, and of course we've all got the same number of hours in the day, but are there any particular time drains that you have? Is it the bureaucracy or are there other things that kind of take you away from what you really enjoy doing and find passionate about your work?

Anele Griessel: 40:29

I think the bureaucracy definitely is, I would say, is number one. Um as occupational therapists, like many practitioners, we do need to kind of keep very detailed notes. And those are, and I know this sounds contradictory, but those are a pleasure in terms of the admin and the bureaucracy. But the when you are trying to kind of work with a family and you are looking at avenues to um refer them on, but the system is stopping you from doing that, and it's so time consuming that you know those are the things that I that I really really detest is when when when I'm when what we're trying to do is you can see the path, we know the pathway, but there's all kind of hoops and jumps that you need to jump through, and they take too much time. And sometimes that is that is really not what this this person needs right now, because especially when they come to you um in at a crisis point, um, that that is that that's very, very difficult. And then as I say, the um kind of some of the from a business perspective is making sure that we are compliant, and and and that can be from a time perspective. Sometimes you have to um jump through several hoops when you're working with um uh you know government institutions, um, and and and they need all the paperwork in place, and you think, really, do I need to fill this format three times? Is that really necessary? Um, but yes, it's it's got to be done sometimes.

Dr Andrew Greenland: 42:10

Thank you. And then I guess finally, what's on the cards for you in the next year or so? Do you have any particular plans for your work or anything that you're looking forward to doing from a business point of view?

Anele Griessel: 42:20

From a business point of view, um, in in terms of the team that I work with is is about thriving, is about looking at innovative ways that we can work not just um our practice but reaching out to similar practices around us and see if we cannot um be a bigger voice in our local area and through through that reaching more families. For me personally, um the sensory app is something that I'm very very passionate about, and it's about getting that message out to people that you know overwhelm is something that we we can work through that um by by breaking the circuit and by stopping and by noticing with intent. And I'm really really hoping so that to me, that is the next year is for me is to learn more and to and and to see if we can bring a message and to have a tool available to it that anybody can access to help understand their own sensory preferences and in that way to nurture their sensory system so that life can be more joyful and they can have the tools and the skills to to be more resilient through that process and in a step-by-step guided way.

Dr Andrew Greenland: 43:39

And on that note, I'd like to thank you so much for joining us today. It's been such an insightful conversation, so much good education. I think we now know exactly what OT is, or at least some of our listeners who perhaps didn't before, and your really important work with um neurodiversity informed care, sensory-based systems, choosing joy, talking your thoughts about stress and burnout. Really, really uh wonderful um conversation topics. So thank you so much, and we really appreciate that.

Anele Griessel: 44:06

Andrew, thank you so much for the opportunity. I've really, really enjoyed um talking with you, and um and I'm I'm very excited too about the podcast. Um, and I think it's wonderful.