Dr Andrew Greenland: 0:00

So welcome back to Voices in Health Awareness. This is the podcast where we speak with practitioners pushing boundaries in how we care for patients and ourselves. Today's episode is especially timely. We're speaking with Natalie Brooks, a Los Angeles-based advisor psychotherapist and somatic therapy educator. Natalie has spent the past two decades working with clients struggling with trauma, chronic depression, eating disorders, and relational wounds, especially those who weren't improving with traditional cognitive approaches. What makes her model so compelling is how grounded it is in both science and the body. Her framework called SMART, and we'll delve into this in a little bit, blends neuroscience, yoga science, and mentalization theory. Her core premise is this we cannot fully heal the mind without including the body. So with that, I'd like to welcome you to the show, Natalie, and thank you very much for joining me today.

Natalie Brooks: 0:48

Oh, thank you so much, Andrew, for inviting me. Um it's a pleasure to uh speak with you and your audience, and um I'm I'm I'm incredibly grateful. So thank you.

Dr Andrew Greenland: 1:00

Thank you. So let's start at the top. Could you you've been in the mental health field for around, well, 20 years, perhaps even more. Um what originally drew you to what originally drew you into this work?

Natalie Brooks: 1:10

So for me, I was always I was a very shy, anxious child. Um, and I think growing up, I always um I wanted uh people to understand me, but it was very hard for me because I was so shy to um to communicate with people. And and I found it very hard and um wanting somebody to understand me. And as I got older and into university, and I psychology was always something I've been reading psychology books, if you can believe it, since high school. And um I had a teacher, actually, a good friend of mine's father, who was a psychology teacher at my high school, and uh started speaking with him and it just it clicked for me. And I then wanted to go on and uh help people who may have felt like I did um growing up and to to try to yes give back, but also um to provide a voice for those who um who felt like I did. Uh and it from there it just kind of blossomed and I didn't have a particular um, I wasn't aiming for a particular specialty. It just kind of it just kind of fell fell on me or I fell into it, however you want to look at it.

Dr Andrew Greenland: 2:32

Thank you. Always good to hear the kind of origin story of how you've shaped your journey and how you've ended up doing what you do. So when did you start to sense that traditional cognitive um therapy alone wasn't going to be enough for some clients?

Natalie Brooks: 2:45

Sure. So when I so in my early years of my career, I was I worked at UCLA. I worked in the um behavioral health services, which was uh longer-term care for students who had more chronic uh mental health issues that couldn't be uh managed up at the their main campus. And so they would be referred down to us, and so a lot of them had eating disorders, uh, treatment-resistant depression, we would call it, um uh a lot of um uh uh what ended up becoming more personality disorders, borderline personality disorder, a lot of uh emotional dysregulation, and yet obviously they were students at a major university. They were quite bright and intelligent, and yet they struggled so much to manage in their emotional and their personal lives and doing all sorts of things that were um self-harming potentially, um a lot of self-harm, a lot of uh binge drinking, that sort of thing, as a way to cope. And so a lot of them, many of them had come, had had therapy before. And a lot of the cognitive approaches, such as CBT and DBT, they're wonderful approaches. But what I started to notice is students would come in and say, you know, they they wouldn't remember to do any of the things that I had we had talked about, even though they might have left the sessions, they really uh feeling good and ready to apply uh the tools that they were learning and even from previous therapists that they may have worked with. But something would happen and and it just wouldn't happen. And I started to notice this sense of what is going on? Why are these such intelligent uh people not able to do the things, remember the things that we um had talked about? And so it I it it got me curious, and simultaneously I was fortunate enough to be um selected to uh learn mentalization-based treatment from Peter Fonneghi and Anthony Bateman out of uh University College London back in 2009. And and so the theory really gripped me because my training was in psychodynamic and psychoanalytic uh psychotherapies. And so it was the first training here in the US. A lot of the treatments were dialectical behavioral therapy, DBT, for emotional dysregulation disorders. And so it NBT, mentalization-based treatment, being based in a psychodynamic and attachment theory approach really drew me. And I started to see a difference, and I stuck with the training, and they became my mentors, and I'm still working with them in some capacity today through the mentalizing initiative in Los Angeles, where we train other clinicians in MBT. But all of that's to say I started to see patients being able to use the skills. But what I noticed is it was because MBT was getting them to reflect on themselves, but they had to be in a more calm state in order to do that. And by calm, I mean nervous system, because as soon as they would become anxious and dysregulated, and we know this from brain studies, is the the nervous system, right, it shuts off mentalizing as well, right? So it's our cognitive function and uh executive function. And so I started to notice, and meanwhile, I was I was working um with a lot of trauma. Um, I was seeing a lot of students, like I said, uh who had had a lot of years of therapy, but being able to um see them start to change with the MBT and not give up on therapy. I think that was the other thing. Um, but all of that's to say, right, it still wasn't quite quite getting it. We weren't able to quite get there. Um, and I started to do some basic, my background is also in, I have a yoga background of 25 years. And so I started to just do some very basic breathing with them. And um, and they would come back in and say, you know, I tried that and it helped. Um, and so from there, uh I would, you know, they would get upset sometimes and say, I don't want to do, I don't want to breathe. That doesn't help me. And I but when I would explain to them the science behind it and I would tell them, I want you to make an informed decision. You're an intelligent person, but understand the science. And then it started to click for them because they appreciated, they understood why I was asking them to do those things, if that makes sense.

Dr Andrew Greenland: 7:41

So that brings us nicely on to the next thing I wanted to ask you about, which is specifically your SMART model. Could you talk talk us through what led to the development of that? I guess you've kind of alluded to that already, uh, but also what it looks like in practice for patients that you're seeing.

Natalie Brooks: 7:56

Yeah, sure. So I so this has been a long, a long journey for for, you know, it was again not something I started um out thinking, let me invent something. It I just sort of discovered it on my own, actually, through my own journey. And part of that uh came about 10 years ago when um, you know, the pandemic didn't help, it exacerbated it. But I started uh myself having some physical symptoms of, you know, just fatigue, extreme um joint pain. Um and it got to the point one day where, you know, I I could hardly button my my shirts. Um and my hands, the joints in my hands were incredibly painful. And so I was, you know, I was I came from a family where you know you you you work until you drop, unless you're, you know, unless you have a 104 fever, you're going to work. And so in my mind, um hand pain was silly, you know, what carry on, you know, you don't need to, so what? Your hands hurt, keep keep going. However, it got so bad that I um, like I said, I could it got to the point where I could hardly get out of bed. Um, I I was continuing to work, um, but I had a lot of joint pain. And so long story short, I many doctors later, I was diagnosed with rheumatoid arthritis. And so for me, I started to go during that time. I had kind of stepped away from my yoga practice mostly because I was so busy. But, you know, one of the things that the doctors, a rheumatologist had encouraged me to do was move more, but I was in so much pain that it was sort of this vicious cycle. But, you know, this is I'm doing 10 years very quickly, but I reconnected uh with a former yoga teacher of mine um from many years ago, and I started to do these practices of breath work and very slowly um just not even getting out of bed, just sitting in bed doing them. And I noticed I was slowly starting to feel better. Yes, I was still taking the medication, um, but I was able to move. And in that, recognizing I was carrying a lot of trauma in my own body that I had, even though I had worked through all of the mental and emotional things in my previous years of my own therapy and training as a therapist, didn't realize how much somatic trauma I was still holding on to. So even though I had cognitively worked through things and I could identify them, my body was telling me something else. It was sending me a message. And so one of the things I say to people is your body will continue to send you a message until you're paying attention. And that's what happened for me. And so when I started using these practices, I was feeling better. And now I've been a year, and I'm not suggesting listeners do this, but I I've been, I haven't needed to take any um RA medication for a year because I've been using these practices. So, in a way, um, my method became my medicine for my patients because I started implementing, I noticed in myself how I was feeling and what it was doing for me. So I started implementing some of them with them and combining the mentalization treatment that I am trained in. And I realized that being able to uh uh regulate on that level and use some of these practices, patients were then able to access the mentalizing and start to mentalize, even mentalize what we call somatic mentalizing or embodied mentalizing, being able to reflect on uh uh interoceptive states and what what's going on, just because many, even, for example, eating disorder patients, they can't identify hunger cues sometimes anymore. If they're anorexia or with bulimia, they can't identify uh uh fullness cues. So just very at a very basic level and recognizing this is a real gap in in mental health, at least in the traditional standard of how therapists, often many therapists work. And so it's kind of a hodgepodge of my own experience and recognizing how I was still carrying that trauma in my body and needing to release it on a physiological level while implementing some of these other tools. And so I started applying it with a couple of patients and noticing, and so slowly, little by little, they were getting better. And then I have been able to recognize it really, it it's there's something I'm doing, right? And so I started thinking, how do I create something, this this framework in a sense, to help them that can be step by step? Because many patients want to know what do I do? I feel terrible. What do I do? And so the somatic piece gives them something to do while we're able to talk through and and access some of the more mentalizing and get that mentalizing back online. But if it's too cognitive, then then they won't the because the emotional intense, the emotional intensity and the suffering is so incredible for some of these patients, they can't bear it. And so having something to do helps ground them, yes, literally in their body, but also gives them something to focus on. So that's a long answer to your question. I don't know if I I hope I I had hope I did it just.

Dr Andrew Greenland: 13:56

No, it does. Thank you. I was just trying to think if I was sitting in the corner of your therapy room while you're working with a client, what will I actually see you doing with the client? Can you sort of give us a perhaps a quite a concrete example just to give us a sense of what this looks like?

Natalie Brooks: 14:09

Sure. So what what I typically do in my sessions, and again, um if it's a someone that I've been working with for a while, we we start with a very basic check-in. Where are you in your body today? You know, on a scale of zero to ten, ten being the most, you know, uh panic attack slash anxiety, uh physical pain, where are you? And they know that I if they're anything above a five, I say, you know, we need to do some somatic work before we even get into um any of the uh emotional um issues. And so we will start with, and the somatic practice that I implement is grounded in it's my training in yoga is from Radiant Body Yoga, which combines um uh breath work, uh what we call kriyas, which are just action sequences of certain, it can be postures, but it can also be breath work. And so I will start with a particular um either a breath sequence, or if they're extremely anxious, we will do something quite literally physical that that links body and um excuse me, movement and breath. Uh, and until and until that anxiety or that dysregulation comes down, then we can start. And sometimes that might go on for you know five or 10 minutes, depending on how how dysregulated they are. And so then if they are, if they can say, okay, now I'm back down to a three or a four, okay, now we can start with with um the more psychological, emotional uh uh feelings and um issues that are coming up from for them. And then I'm constantly monitoring and I try to teach them to monitor notice when you start to feel yourself getting anxious, and sometimes many of them don't, but I can see it because there's certain things that will happen. And that also includes not just emotional dysregulation, but also um uh people who dissociate where they in that fight, flight, or freeze, they freeze. And so you can see them, I can see them shut down and I'll ask them to go inward. What's going on right now? And and you know, because you can see a set, there's a sort of a deer in the headlights um look that people will have. And so constantly um uh tempering it to is it, you know, where are you in your body throughout the entire session? I tell them, you know, anything above a seven or an eight, it's almost too late because the mind, the amygdala, you know, that lizard brain has taken over by that point. And I teach them that too. I teach them about the lizard brain. I don't get too much into the unless they want to, get too much into the to the brain anatomy, but I do explain to them that that lower brain, once it takes over, it's very difficult. And sometimes it takes, you know, a good five or 10 minutes for it to come down long enough to be able to start to access and get mentalizing back online. And so they they they appreciate it. Um, and then the the trick is also to get them to do it in their own lives when they're not in the session with me. Um, because it's very hard, especially someone who's not attuned to their uh their internal, their interoceptive signals. It gets to a 10 and they they will come in and say, I don't know, it just came out of nowhere. But when we when we backtrack, it's actually, oh no, actually started much far before they recognized feeling like they were at a 10. But because they they're not connected to the body, they don't realize it. And so that's kind of what a session would look like is really teaching them what they can do at home, not just with me. Um, because so much of psychotherapy, yes, it's the container of of the four walls of the office that we're in. But then can you can you take that into your life? Because hopefully what we're doing is a microcosm in in psychotherapy so that they can apply it to the greater macrocosm of their lives. Um, it's not just within that hour of time that they're with me and that we're talking together.

Dr Andrew Greenland: 18:46

Thank you. Really helpful description. So I think you describe your model as root up inside out. I think I get the inside out there. What does the root up mean from your perspective? And uh, just in case I've missed it.

Natalie Brooks: 18:57

Yeah, yeah, sure. So it it has a it has a backstory. So uh one of the things in my ear early on in my career that I learned from a psychodynamic perspective is that you can talk about issues and you can solve them um cognitively, but problems or issues or experiences, suffering can is like a weed, you know, and if it's sort of if you pull a weed out, and I would use this analogy early on, if you pull a, if you just cut the weed off, you you you cut it off, you can't see it anymore, but it's going to grow back. And it and it isn't until you pull it out by the weed, by the excuse me, by the root, right, that it will, it will be, it will be essentially gone, right? So this this idea I would teach my clients, patients very early on, have to get to the root of it and and excavate it in a sense, so that it can heal and and move on. If we just cut it off, it's going to keep coming back. So that was very early. On that was maybe you know 20 years ago I would use that. As I started to do these somatic practices, um, and you know, my my technique kind of grew. I recognized, yes, we're working from the inside out, the body is the root, and that came from my own experience and being able to um uh I hadn't pulled it out by the root on a somatic level. I had done all of the mental and uh emotional work, body was still carrying it. So the root essentially is is the body and being able to uh uh uh access uh those deeper places within us on a somatic level and then be able to um because in in the tradition of yoga that I've taught I've been trained in, a lot of it comes from the energy at the root uh chakra uh and being able to move it up, we call it up and out, right? So up through the spine and then hopefully out. Uh so that's that's the background of the from the root up. Because the root. So there's so kind of two, you know, things are synchronous in how they how they develop, right? I I again I wasn't planning on it, but it it just it just fell and it just happened to also align with what I had been teaching people on a on a uh in my psychotherapy um on a uh intellectual uh mental level, and then later on recognizing okay, there's the body too, and the actual root chakra of the body is also part of it.

Dr Andrew Greenland: 21:43

So thank you for explaining that's really really helpful. So in your experience, what types of clients benefit most from this approach? Or is there really the sky's the limit and everybody is amenable to this um kind of uh model?

Natalie Brooks: 21:56

Yeah, I mean, I think well, first of all, you know, uh I'll just say mentalizing, you know, we from a mentalizing, this is a whole other component of the work that I do, but mentalizing is something we all have the capacity for. We all do it, we all lose it, it ebbs and flows. And mental what mentalizing refers to is you know being able to identify our thoughts, our feelings, our wishes, uh, our desires in both self, in ourselves and others. And why that's important is because just even um, well, on a personal level, our if we can't do that, it's going to be very difficult for us to understand uh other people and and their intentions. And that's where things can go very wrong in interpersonal relationships. People um misread uh situations, and often it's because mentalizing has gone offline. So that's that's the mental part. But the somatic part, I think both anyone can benefit from both because whether it's anxiety, whether it's, you know, I have people who uh with some serious uh depression and self-harm, a lot of um eating disorders from anorexia, bulimia, spinge eating, um substance abuse, really anyone I think can benefit because we our body, we all we all have a body, we all have a mind, but part of it is is figuring out where where has it gone offline for some people. And for some people, it's using substances or or uh uh using uh restricting food or binging and purging to cope with what's going on, either on a mental level or uh physical level. And I I say that firsthand from myself that what was going on for me was my body was was sending me signals that I needed to pay attention to. And as I started to do that, to me, it's no coincidence that I, you know, I'm back to an active life, I I haven't had to take medication, and not that medication is bad, but I my body doesn't need it. I I've been able to recover. Um, and so I just I I think anyone, whether it's a chronic autoimmune disease, uh, you know, or or a more mental, serious mental health, or just a light anxiety, anyone can benefit from it.

Dr Andrew Greenland: 24:45

And what kinds of um clinical presentations are you seeing more of in 2026? I'm always kind of keen to get what the what you're seeing in the industry, because obviously you have first hand experience. What's what's coming through the doors?

Natalie Brooks: 24:56

Yeah, you know, a lot of I I see a lot of obviously a lot of stress um and and anxiety, but I think what's different is given, at least in the US right now, there's a lot of fear and a lot of uh anxiety about like global anxiety about the world, um, what it means, uh both in their own lives. Um I'm also seeing here, I don't know about in the UK in Europe, but here there's a lot of emphasis on ketamine and some of the the uh psilocybin treatments. And I'm not opposed to them if if they're helpful, but but what I what I am seeing is a lot of people are coming uh with with some of the ketamine therapies, but they depending on on where they're going, it's not unless it's combined with the psychotherapy, it it I don't it can for me it concerns me because again, we're not addressing the deeper the the root of of what's going on. And so to just medicate someone, and again, medication is extremely helpful, but again, if we're not addressing that deeper uh layer, it just kind of stays. And so what I'm seeing is a lot of people coming who have tried all these things, uh, who are extremely either depressed. And when I say stress, what I mean is chronic stress that has kind of become toxic. And um in the sense where they are having some somatic, a lot of healthy younger uh women in particular, um, interestingly, who are who are professional women who are struggling in in their emotions, but this the level of stress um on their physical body, they're having a lot of autoimmune symptoms um that they probably wouldn't normally have if if they were able to regulate on some level. Um, and so that's that's really I'm seeing a lot of that. And I I think I say women, not just because I mean I am one, but what I'm saying is I think it's this sense of having to hold everything all at once in a world that is continually uh becoming faster and faster and faster. Um, and there's no separation from work and home. It just kind of bleeds in. Also, see a lot of health professionals, physicians, um, nurses who uh have been burned out by the pandemic, even though it's been a couple of years now. Um, but I think again, sort of that post and a uh secondhand exposure to the trauma that was seen and them holding it, all of that in their own bodies and feeling coming and saying, I feel burned out. I don't know what's wrong with me. I used to love this profession. Um, so I also see a lot of physicians and nurses in my practice.

Dr Andrew Greenland: 28:08

And would you say um clients are more dysregulated, or are we just better at recognizing it now, and particularly with your approach?

Natalie Brooks: 28:14

You know, it that's an interesting question. I think when I was at UCLA, you know, one of the things that we noticed from the time I was there for about 10 years, and what we what we noticed from at least from the time I started to the time I left, there was an um, I can't remember the percentage, but a significant amount of people who were coming with diagnoses that fit diagnoses of personality disorder, whether that was borderline personality disorder or narcissistic personality disorder were the were the two main ones. But specifically, and and mentalization-based treatment, you know, is an evidence-based treatment that was founded on on it's it's evidence-based for borderline personality disorder. And I say that because when I was at UCLA, the percentage there was an increase in what we were seeing of uh interpersonal difficulties and relationships, but also in the self-harm uh and self-harm aspect of it. And, you know, so for me, I think yes, people are seemingly more dysregulated. Um, and I don't know, it's a good question. I don't know if it's because there's there's more out there and so it's more stressful. I think it's probably a combination, as I'm as I'm saying this out loud, of the environment, because we know uh, you know, the environment that a child grows up in, you know, that is is incredibly um important in terms of of of again that capacity to reflect and to learn to reflect on self and others. So, you know, it's sort of the environment begets the environment, right? So parents who have who are now people who are now parents of young children, depending on how they grew up, right? So again, if you have a non-mentalizing environment, then you bring in a child into a non-mentalizing environment, right? And so then it's sort of mushrooms, it just keeps growing. And so I part of me wonders, you know, is it is it that? I think it's I think it's a bit of everything, actually, um, as I'm saying it. Yeah.

Dr Andrew Greenland: 30:32

And do you feel like um the somatic work is still viewed as fringe or has the field begun to open and open up and shift a bit in the direction that you work in?

Natalie Brooks: 30:41

Yeah, you know, I think I don't know if it well, it's hard to say. I think perhaps it depends where you are, maybe geographically too. I don't know, but I I know here in Los Angeles there's a number of of um of you know uh uh therapists, but also programs that really emphasize that uh as well as yoga pro a lot of retreats and things like wellness retreats and things like that. Um, I don't know if it's fringe. I I'd have to say, you know, I certainly think there are people who are skeptics. Um, you know, again, here in the US, a lot of it is insurance company-based, right? So, you know, evidence-based is is often things that that insurance companies here will will pay for. And sadly, a lot of the somatic um therapies and more psychodynamic therapies, longer-term therapies are are not necessarily are not typically covered here by insurance. Um I I do think there are um I think a lot more programs that are, at least here in California, but I don't know. I I would be curious to know about the the midsection, but also other parts of the world. Um, I think obviously countries with more Eastern philosophy traditions uh I think have been integrating it far longer. Yoga science goes back thousands of years. Um, and some of the things that the yogis knew were just now coming online with the neuroscience behind in terms of the energy uh work that I was speaking to earlier. So I don't know if it's French. It's a I I I I I I'm hesitating because I think I'm biased in where I live. Um and I think if we live in more urban areas, we have access to more things. Um yeah, I don't know.

Dr Andrew Greenland: 32:46

Thank you. So obviously you're running a clinic and it's a business. I'm just curious to know what's working particularly well from you, particularly well for you as a business right now.

Natalie Brooks: 32:56

So I I think what's happening, and I I've kind of I've been in private practice for and and I had a group practice for a while here after I left UCLA. And I think I'm kind of in this transition place, but I think part of it is what's working is people, as I was saying before, people want to walk away with something that they can do, and at least in psychotherapy. And what was happening is um, you know, the cognitive behavior. If I if I gave someone a worksheet to take home, you know, no one wants to do homework. And so many people would come back and say, oh, I didn't do it or I forgot. But I think what's happening now with the way I'm working is I'm doing the what's interesting is because I've been through it myself, and I and I I don't disclose my entire life story to my patients, but I do tell them these are practices I also do. And so I will do it with them, you know, whether it's I'm seeing them virtually or in office, we do it together. Um, and so I think what's working is to be able to see someone who they're coming to for help, be able to relate to them in that way, of course, but then to say, no, this person is actually doing this with me. I'm not, A, I'm not alone in doing it. And B, um, it worked, it's working, it's working for them. It's not just I'm a doctor in this hierarchy, you know, of uh patient doctor. No, it's it's an equal, it's a side by side that we're doing it together. And I think that's for me, that's what I see as working and is really helpful for patients to see I'm I'm just like them, right? I'm a regular person. And that's my approach. That's really my approach. And that's actually behind mentalization-based treatment as well. It's it's we're walking side by side, looking at an issue, a problem together. It isn't me across from you telling you what to do.

Dr Andrew Greenland: 35:06

Thank you. And on the other side of the coin, of any particular challenges that you're working through or any frustrations or bottlenecks in the work that you do or the practice that you run?

Natalie Brooks: 35:16

I think here, I think a big one, and and I was alluding to this a minute ago, is is is affordability and and and how do we make it more accessible to people who may not have the ability to pay privately. Um, you know, a portion of my practice is private. Um, I also work through uh a nonprofit organization that I was referring to earlier, which is um training other other clinicians, but but trying to get more clinicians trained so that there are more people who can do this this particular work that I'm speaking of. But I think the challenge is how do we make it um more affordable? How do we uh how do we get insurance companies, at least here, to to consider and cover that? Um I think those are the those are the biggest challenges because now with the internet we could get it out there. Um but how do we get it out there to more people who may not be able to afford uh a private uh um a private fee?

Dr Andrew Greenland: 36:27

Um and if you had a magic wand and you could fix one thing in the business tomorrow, what would that be? Obviously the affordability thing we'll say that has been fixed. Um is there anything else that you'd like to be able to fix with a magic wand if you had one?

Natalie Brooks: 36:38

Uh in the business, from a business, I think um I'd have to think. Let's see, if from a business end, if if if affordability wasn't an issue, I think training, I think it would go back to training more uh clinicians in the theory, or at least recognizing that the heart, the body, and the mind have to be aligned. Um, and and understanding the importance of both and understanding that as a clinician that we are, yes, we are there to help our clients, but to be able to uh recognize the role the body plays, because some I find it to be sometimes very either or. Either people clinicians are trained in the cognitive more cognitive, behavioral, psychodynamic, whatever it is, just traditional uh mental health uh uh training, or they have the the the somatic, whether it's yoga or or energy work, um, they come from that angle. But how do we how do we blend the two? Um, and that's what I would like to see personally is training more people in in what I and that part of what Spark tries to do is blend both to recognize how both um can benefit clients, but also the clinicians themselves, because physicians, as you know, physicians, nurses, anybody in the mental, we hold a lot, we see a lot and we hold a lot. And I think it it's so it's not just benefiting the clients or the patients, it's also benefiting ourselves. Because when we're whole, we show up whole, we can be whole for our patients, both in our personal, our professional life and our personal life. So I think just this training this, uh training more clinicians is what I would like to see in understanding how the two can be. It you don't have to, you don't have to give up one or the other, whichever one you're you're working from. You don't have to give that up.

Dr Andrew Greenland: 38:55

And on that note, if you um is that something you'd like to do? Would you like to do sort of training for other clinicians or create um group programs or digital education? Are those things you've kind of thought about doing?

Natalie Brooks: 39:06

Actually, it's it's a good question. I, you know, you caught me at a very uh it's it's in the infancy stages, but I am starting to do that. I I already trained, so mentalization-based treatment specifically, I'm already doing that. We do that here. The Los Angeles, we're the Los Angeles satellite of of Anafroid Center, of the Anafroid Center MBT training. We we're the LA satellite. There's one in uh in Boston as well, but we're the only two in the US. So I'm already doing that with mentalization-based treatment. But for SMART, I am also starting to do that on my own, where I am um, sorry, my AirPod fell out, where I am working with uh therapists and starting to train them in this in the model, and also offering more courses for for clients who maybe don't want, maybe they've had a lot of their own. Individual psychotherapy, but so they know what they need to do, but they want a course that's maybe six weeks instead of having to come weekly. So, yes, um, to answer your question, yeah, no, absolutely. That's my goal.

Dr Andrew Greenland: 40:16

And thinking about sort of the year ahead, what would success look like for you in the next six to 12 months? Or is there anything you're particularly looking to do with your work or your practice?

Natalie Brooks: 40:26

Yeah, I I think it's I think it's uh developing uh a more um more structured uh where courses are available, um, but that SMART is the somatic part of SMART is the the radiant body yoga tradition methods, um, and recognizing that those sequences of breath work and movement are you are designed for specific. So in other words, for someone who's depressed is going to use a different, I'm going to teach them a different sequence than I am going to teach someone who maybe extremely have panic disorder or anxiety because there's different breath, there's different practices that get energy moving. But someone who's extremely anxious, their energy is very, is probably very um active. Someone who's depressed, we need to activate their energy. And by energy, I'm talking the their physical, yes, their physical energy, but it isn't just about going out and saying, go exercise. Because someone who's extremely depressed, they can't, they can't. There's they don't see the that's the problem. But there are certain things we can do very, very slowly. So my the long answer is I I would like to see um uh more specific courses for certain uh mental health disorders, but also I'm gonna I I will add and plan to is the autoimmune disorders, uh, particularly for people who um are really struggling with uh uh you know maybe they, you know, they're doing a medication regimen and it's kind of helped, or maybe it's not helped at all, but giving them some hope in some way that they're there this might be something that they can try. Um and again, not not uh uh you know, not uh, you know, not ignoring their doctor's recommendations, of course, but as an adjunct, um, because it I it it saved my life, is and I tell my I tell my mentor this all the time. It it saved my life because I I couldn't walk. I mean, I I literally couldn't get out of bed, I couldn't walk, I couldn't hold a class. Um, it was it was that bad. And you know, I think there is hope. So that would be my dream is to be able to um have more uh opportunities and and courses for people that they can use on either on their own time but or live, you know, if they if they want someone live.

Dr Andrew Greenland: 43:19

Natalie, thank you so much for joining me. This has been such a grounded and insightful conversation. Uh learned so much, and I'm hoping our listeners will too. I really love how your model weaves the science and subtlety of both body and mind, and it really offers something that clients seem to be hungry for. So thank you very much for joining me. Thank you much for sharing your wisdom, your knowledge, and your experience. Um most grateful.

Natalie Brooks: 43:40

Oh, thank you so much, Andrew. It was a pleasure. I'd I'd very grateful. So thanks again.